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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:46 am 
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Spaulding wrote:
I have said it's possible there is a link between autism and vaccinations.


But why are you saying that? It's possible there is a link between autism and automobile rides as well. It doesn't stop you from riding in a car.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:49 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

As BRick keeps pointing out, it's easy to be misled by one's personal experiences.


What if there is a genetic link for the reactions to vaccines? Or something they all have in common? Personal experience is sometimes why you questions things. It's what drives many causes and sometimes leads to breakthroughs.

If I'm sitting there with a paralyzed child because of vaccine why would I let my next child have it without knowing the cause?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:53 am 
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Bucky Chris wrote:
Nas wrote:
So we're asking others to ignore their experiences or the experiences of others around them? That seems like an odd thing to ask.


Yes. And no one is saying its easy. It's the same thing as my example with cigarettes. Knowing people who smoke packs a day and don't have medical issues doesn't mean you should do The same.


As someone already mentioned, someone had a kid who had side effects and they still vaccinated the other two kids. No one is saying there aren't risks, or that it's impossible for something to go wrong. But you have the weigh the risks and look at the big picture.



To give a vaccination to male child, who's brother was harmed by the same vaccination, is not even odd. That's crazy.

And our son has been exposed to the chicken pox a dozen times that we know of, and has never been infected.

As Spaulding brought up, mercury was injected into kids until 2009. We trusted medicine before. Our experiences taught us to question further and make informed decisions. That's what we do. If you are a parent that chooses otherwise, God bless you. I'm not charged with making your decisions for you. And whatever you choose, then good for you.

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Last edited by Seacrest on Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:54 am 
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Spaulding wrote:
Science is right til it's wrong, just wait is flawed logic to me. Why wouldn't you demand it be right as soon as possible?
That is how science works though, and it has extended all of our lives by decades. How can we ever know if something will be proven later on? We'd literally have to never do anything. We may one day discover that fruit causes all cancer. Should we stop all fruit consumption? We may found out that wearing shoes causes heart disease. The logic you are describing literally means that we shouldn't do anything ever. We should shut medicine down completely. Let's close all the hospitals because we can't say with 100% certainty that 50 years from now we won't discover something we were doing wasn't wrong even though there is currently no evidence to support it. I know it sounds like I am exaggerating here but I am not. If you can't trust the science that says that there is no known link between autism and vaccines, then you can't trust any science and you should just drop out.
Spaulding wrote:
I have said it's possible there is a link between autism and vaccinations. Don't know. My concern is that we know it causes seizures, rashes, paralysis, etc. I find your too bad so sad attitude odd.
Just like any medical procedure, vaccines do have some very rare side effects. I do find it very sad that anyone has to deal with medical hardship. However, I'm not willing to throw away the whole system of vaccines, which does save millions of lives, for unsubstantiated claims made by housewives and celebrities.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:59 am 
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I didn't say throw them away. I said every parent has a right based on the information they have to decide if their child should be vaccinated and not be ridiculed for it.

You've lost me with the rest of your paragraphs.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:59 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
pittmike wrote:
I had measles as a kid but my kids had choice for vaccine so that must be fairly recent. I have seen some toss numbers in here but would be nice if someone had the time to post CDC charts of chicken pox, dpt, polio deaths etc over time. Especially showing the time before and after vaccine.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm


People who get vaccinated are still catching the very diseases that they are being vaccinated from.

I already knew. It was factored into our decision.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:06 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
pittmike wrote:
I had measles as a kid but my kids had choice for vaccine so that must be fairly recent. I have seen some toss numbers in here but would be nice if someone had the time to post CDC charts of chicken pox, dpt, polio deaths etc over time. Especially showing the time before and after vaccine.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm


Thanks

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:07 am 
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Spaulding wrote:
What if there is a genetic link for the reactions to vaccines? Or something they all have in common? Personal experience is sometimes why you questions things. It's what drives many causes and sometimes leads to breakthroughs.
I'd almost buy this if it was just people wanting more investigation. That is more than fair. Donate to places that study this. Ask the proper people to look into it. Go get a degree that allows you to research this. An actual medically sound study on this topic that shows a substantiated link would be a great thing.

The problem is that uneducated people are overriding the overwhelming amount of evidence because they think they know what they are talking about because they watched Jenny McCarthy(by the way, wrong about the vaccines, and her kid didn't even have autism) on television. People aren't questioning it. They are making society as a whole more dangerous by stopping one of the great medical advances in history. If vaccines were never invented, there are people on this board posting today who would be dead. These diseases were mass killers. Many who didn't die, had long term problems. We had a President of the United States who almost died because he had polio. Could you imagine that now? I'm not sure I know anyone who has gotten polio.

There is a massive difference between ignoring virtually all evidence and instead relying on your anecdotal evidence and simply thinking that more investigation should be made. I'll agree that more studies should be done on vaccines. We always should be doing studies on them. The goal of medicine should be to make things safer or more understood. However, the standards you are requiring would set back medicine 100 years. That is the problem. People will die if this trend of anti-vaccination continues. They probably already are.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:10 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
People who get vaccinated are still catching the very diseases that they are being vaccinated from.
Exactly! That is why it is so important to build up a herd immunity! You'd think an expert on vaccines such as yourself would understand just how silly an objection like this is. It would be like saying that buildings with sprinklers still catch fire. That is why you need sprinklers!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:11 am 
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Topical article on Slate...


I’m a Pediatrician. Should I Treat All Kids, or Just the Vaccinated Ones?

It’s not an easy call.

By Sydney Spiesel


The latest incident of parents who don’t vaccinate their children impacting parents who do is unfolding in New York City, where the Health Department has confirmed a measles outbreak. Parents who don’t want their children immunized put pediatricians—the great, great majority of us, anyway—in a quandary. On the one hand, we profoundly believe in the value and importance of vaccines. On the other hand, we profoundly believe in the value and importance of caring for all children who need us, and some of those children have parents who refuse to vaccinate.


Probably most of my colleagues would be very annoyed to hear me say so, but if you were to take all the pediatricians and stuff them in a barrel and fling them over Niagara Falls, the world would not be so badly off, but the same cannot be said about vaccines: Getting rid of them would be a real disaster. Second only to providing clean water and properly dealing with sewage, the use of vaccines has contributed more to our quality and length of life than any other medical or public health intervention.


But not everybody understands that, partly because vaccines have been so successful at eliminating many serious infectious diseases that there is no longer any public perception of risk from the illnesses they prevent. But there are other forces at play that make some parents reluctant to have their children immunized, even though they care a lot about their children’s health. The Internet permits people to write anything they want, and apparently people do just that, authoritatively, no matter whether their positions are (or are not) sensible or rational. To complicate things, we are all influenced by a fascinating psychological mechanism that automatically imputes gravitas, wisdom, and authority to anything presented in Times New Roman, even if the same message would be dismissed out of hand if scrawled in chalk on a sidewalk. Googling “immunization” will give you lots and lots of hits that probably ought to have been written in chalk on a sidewalk.


Besides, we’ve all been manipulated and lied to for somebody’s political or parochial or financial benefit, and so it’s not hard to believe that we are all constantly being manipulated and lied to for somebody’s political or parochial or financial benefit. I cheerfully admit that I often feel that way, and it helps me to understand the sense of suspicion that affects the thinking of parents reluctant to allow their children to be vaccinated.


So here is where pediatricians find themselves: Even if we believe—as virtually all of us do—that immunization is tremendously important and valuable, what do we do about the parents who don’t want their kids to get vaccinated?


Different docs have different answers to that question, and each answer raises its own ethical issues. Probably the easiest to dispense with are the tiny, tiny minority of doctors who just don’t believe in immunization: They welcome reluctant parents with open arms, reinforce the reluctance, and keep everybody happy (except, of course, the rest of us). These doctors are adding, to some degree, to everyone’s risk. And that’s an ethical lapse, not just a medical one.


The great majority of doctors, however, apparently having paid attention in medical school, fully accept the value of vaccines and the very, very low rate of risk attached to vaccination. (Nothing in medicine or life is ever completely devoid of risk, but—contrary to the chalk-scrawls—vaccination is one of the safest treatments you will ever encounter.) What do we do about vaccine refusers? It’s a difficult question. If we don’t allow unimmunized kids in our practice, where will they get medical care? That’s the reason that many (though I’m not sure how many) pediatricians allow unimmunized kids in their practice. But others refuse to see any patients whose parents won’t vaccinate them. According to a 2012 Wall Street Journal story, “In a study of Connecticut pediatricians published last year, some 30% of 133 doctors said they had asked a family to leave their practice for vaccine refusal, and a recent survey of 909 Midwestern pediatricians found that 21% reported discharging families for the same reason.”


In 2005 the American Academy of Pediatrics issued a policy statement addressing the question of how to respond to parents who refuse to allow their children to be vaccinated. The document focused on how pediatricians ought to deal with vaccine refusal (with reason) and recommended that we do our best to educate parents about benefits and risks. Though there is a nod to the public health implications of immunization refusal, most of the attention is addressed to the medical needs of the child whose parents don’t want immunization. The policy, after a minor change in 2013, suggests that pediatricians should “endeavor not to discharge” patients whose parents refuse immunization.


Perhaps I am too heavily influenced by the beginning of my career, which was in public health, but I feel a strong commitment to the well-being of all the kids in the community and, even more strongly, to the health of all the children in my practice; not just the one I’m seeing right this minute. I know that doctor’s offices, like schools and shopping malls—any place that children congregate—pose an increased risk for disease transmission. It just seems unfair that one parent’s well-intended but perhaps not well-thought-out decision for her own child should add risk for the lives of other children I take care of. So, yes, I do have rules that apply to parents who refuse vaccination. But my rules differ a little bit from those of most pediatricians.


Personally, I draw the line at vaccines protecting against diseases that kids might catch from exposures in my office. If parents want to withhold protection from hepatitis B or cervical and oral cancer, I think it’s not so smart, but I’ll still care for their children because not even the friskiest teen is likely to transmit these diseases in my office. Measles? Whooping cough? These are another matter. My sense of responsibility to the health of the vast majority of kids coming to see me says “no.”


I didn’t come to this decision easily. After all, it’s the parents, not the children, who make the choice to avoid vaccines—what is my responsibility to those kids? Maybe I’m deluding myself, but I sort of believe that my clear policy may be beneficial to them, too. It’s a statement of how important I think immunization is (and why I think so). It encourages families to think about responsibility to others in the community. And it sometimes provokes people to rethink the question. (I’ve had families who left my practice because of my policy, but later came back, perhaps in spite of it—or perhaps, finally, because of it.)

But I’m not entirely naïve. My decision is made easier because I’m lucky enough to live in a state, Connecticut, that is serious about requiring shots to attend school. In addition, there are plenty of fine practitioners around town, and the statistics suggest that if 30 percent of Connecticut’s pediatricians won’t see unimmunized kids, it must mean that 70 percent will take care of them. What would I do about vaccine-refusing families if I were the only doc around? That would be a hard one.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:13 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
People who get vaccinated are still catching the very diseases that they are being vaccinated from.
Exactly! That is why it is so important to build up a herd immunity! You'd think an expert on vaccines such as yourself would understand just how silly an objection like this is. It would be like saying that buildings with sprinklers still catch fire. That is why you need sprinklers!


And how does science know if the human body has already built up an immunity on its own?

And if others are getting the measles, and our son is not, then is it not more likely that he may already have an immunity to it?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:19 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
And how does science know if the human body has already built up an immunity on its own?
There are immunity tests out there.
Seacrest wrote:
And if others are getting the measles, and our son is not, then is it not more likely that he may already have an immunity to it?
I guess it's likely I'm immune to cancer too! After all, I don't have it right now.

Again, herd immunity is something you really need to educate yourself on.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:31 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
And how does science know if the human body has already built up an immunity on its own?
There are immunity tests out there.
Seacrest wrote:
And if others are getting the measles, and our son is not, then is it not more likely that he may already have an immunity to it?
I guess it's likely I'm immune to cancer too! After all, I don't have it right now.

Again, herd immunity is something you really need to educate yourself on.




We were well aware of the herd mentality. Another reason considered before we made a decision on our youngest.

Our decisions are born out by his good health and our decisions when he was younger to allow his immune system to fight some minor maladies on its own.

Measles vaccine can prevent the disease. It doesn't always though.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:34 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
People who get vaccinated are still catching the very diseases that they are being vaccinated from.
Exactly! That is why it is so important to build up a herd immunity! You'd think an expert on vaccines such as yourself would understand just how silly an objection like this is. It would be like saying that buildings with sprinklers still catch fire. That is why you need sprinklers!


People vaccinated get measles? Why?

From what I know about the measles vaccine... You get 2 incase the first does not work. But it only doesn't work in about 2-5% of people so 98-95% are getting an extra vaccination they don't need.

About 90% are vaccinated, 10% not.

And FF, I don't know what to believe either. I don't really trust either side. Both have motivations and I think both will lie or at least make statistics say what they want them to say.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:35 am 
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I don't think you were aware of much on this topic. You wouldn't be asking such basic questions otherwise.

Anyways, I hope it works out for you. Luckily, so far, most parents aren't following your plan or society would be in for a lot of trouble.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:38 am 
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Spaulding wrote:
People vaccinated get measles? Why?
They can. It's not 100% effective. That is why it is so important for EVERYONE to get it. Once again, herd immunity.
Spaulding wrote:
From what I know about the measles vaccine... You get 2 incase the first does not work. But it only doesn't work in about 2-5% of people so 98-95% are getting an extra vaccination they don't need.
What? Some vaccines need multiple doses to increase the odds. Others need boosters every so often. Is there a reason why it matters if you get 1 or 2?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:39 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I don't think you were aware of much on this topic. You wouldn't be asking such basic questions otherwise.

Anyways, I hope it works out for you. Luckily, so far, most parents aren't following your plan or society would be in for a lot of trouble.


The CDC doesn't try and claim that vaccinations are a fail safe for avoiding disease.

As I have stated before, our son is in excellent health.

Thanks for your concern.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:39 am 
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For those who do not get vaccinations. If your child does develop a disease,what will you do then? Do you go to the medical community that you did not trust for help?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:41 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
The CDC doesn't try and claim that vaccinations are a fail safe for avoiding disease.
What is the relevance of this statement? Do you only engage in medical procedures and solutions that have a 100% success rate? If so, you must have some pretty low medical bills.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:41 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I don't think you were aware of much on this topic. You wouldn't be asking such basic questions otherwise.

Anyways, I hope it works out for you. Luckily, so far, most parents aren't following your plan or society would be in for a lot of trouble.



Maybe I ask to see if you know the answers. I don't think you do.

Vaccines have their place. If we did not have them there would be outbreaks. However they do cause damage, we don't know exactly how much, and I think we should have that info and protect the people it would harm.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:43 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
What? Some vaccines need multiple doses to increase the odds. Others need boosters every so often. Is there a reason why it matters if you get 1 or 2?



I would think so. Maybe that 2nd, not needed one, is harmful.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:44 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
The CDC doesn't try and claim that vaccinations are a fail safe for avoiding disease.
What is the relevance of this statement? Do you only engage in medical procedures and solutions that have a 100% success rate? If so, you must have some pretty low medical bills.


So, you can accept the herd mentality, or you can look at what the CDC says, factor in allergic or negative reactions, and make a decision.

Do you take medication that you are allergic to?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:45 am 
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Spaulding wrote:
Maybe I ask to see if you know the answers. I don't think you do.
Thanks for the quiz game.
Spaulding wrote:
Vaccines have their place. If we did not have them there would be outbreaks. However they do cause damage, we don't know exactly how much, and I think we should have that info and protect the people it would harm.
We do know how much. I'm noticing a common theme here. You are seemingly just ignoring the actual process of how the medical community operates. This stuff is studied all the time.
Spaulding wrote:
I would think so. Maybe that 2nd, not needed one, is harmful.
Studies haven't been able to find that.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:48 am 
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RFDC wrote:
For those who do not get vaccinations. If your child does develop a disease,what will you do then? Do you go to the medical community that you did not trust for help?


That question has been posed; I don't recall a direct answer coming to it .... might not want to hold your breath .... or maybe you should - I know the medical community frowns on oxygen deprivation, but what the hell do they know - you might shit gold doubloons if you hold it long enough - who's to say?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:48 am 
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[quote="Boilermaker Rick"]We do know how much. I'm noticing a common theme here. You are seemingly just ignoring the actual process of how the medical community operates. This stuff is studied all the time.

You don't seem to know how often the are wrong and how much they don't know.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:49 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
And our son has been exposed to the chicken pox a dozen times that we know of, and has never been infected.


I was exposed to chickenpox many times without getting it as well. I actually started to believe I might be naturally immune. When I finally got it at age 50, it was vastly worse than anyone I had known who had it in childhood. It wasn't fun. And the older one is when contracting it, there more likely it could be fatal. But chickenpox is generally not so serious as to require a vaccination. In the vast majority of cases in children, it's uncomfortable for a week or so and that's it.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:50 am 
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RFDC wrote:
For those who do not get vaccinations. If your child does develop a disease,what will you do then? Do you go to the medical community that you did not trust for help?


If I were one of those parents, I probably would as a last resort. I'd probably have been looking for help in other places before that though.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:51 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
So, you can accept the herd mentality, or you can look at what the CDC says, factor in allergic or negative reactions, and make a decision.
What does that have to do with vaccines not being 100% effective in preventing disease?
Seacrest wrote:
Do you take medication that you are allergic to?
Of course not, and that is why when you are getting a shot or any other medical treatment they ask you about allergies.

There are some that may be allergic to certain shots. That is why it is even more vital that we don't put out myths like the autism-vaccine thing. That will stop otherwise fully able people from getting the immunizations, and make it more likely that those who can't have the immunization get the disease.

If the story you are telling is accurate, the Jenny McCarthy types should make you madder than anyone else. She is actively endangering your child who can't get immunizations by pushing completely unsubstantiated claims and convincing housewives that immunizations have some unsubstantiated link.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:53 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

I was exposed to chickenpox many times without getting it as well. I actually started to believe I might be naturally immune. When I finally got it at age 50, it was vastly worse than anyone I had known who had it in childhood. It wasn't fun. And the older one is when contracting it, there more likely it could be fatal. But chickenpox is generally not so serious as to require a vaccination. In the vast majority of cases in children, it's uncomfortable for a week or so and that's it.


Since 2005 it has been tacked on to the MMR vaccine. You can get it separate too.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:54 am 
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Spaulding wrote:
You don't seem to know how often the are wrong and how much they don't know.
Stop it.

In science, we have a current best answer, which extends lives and improves them. We learn more and get an even more correct answer but that is not a reason to ignore the current best answer.

I don't think you understand the rabbit hole you are proposing here. The same logic would indicate that there should be no treatment made for cancer for anyone. After all, we don't know as much as we would like about cancer and we may be wrong on things.

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