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Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
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Author:  ZephMarshack [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Just saw Ryan filling in on PTI having an earnest debate with Isola about whether David Ortiz is more deserving of the Hall of Fame than Pete Rose. Rose has apparently been in the news for complaining that Ortiz doesn't belong because he doesn't have enough hits.

The reason Ryan gets this DB though is because he's one of the self-righteous baseball writers who continues to refuse to vote for Bonds, et. al. because of the PED issue, yet managed to debate Ortiz's credentials for the Hall strictly on his accomplishments. How do you have that discussion without once mentioning Ortiz's positive test? Either everyone who used is deserving of being banned or no one is; the mere fact that Ortiz shed some crocodile tears about failing a drug test does not change the situation at all.

I think baseball writers are bad enough when it comes to picking and choosing guys as being worthy or unworthy of the Hall based strictly on who they suspect (e.g. Biggio good, Bagwell bad), but it's even more hypocritical to decide to ignore actual positive tests just because they liked a guy. There is no possible criterion that says Ortiz belongs in Cooperstown and Bonds doesn't other than Ortiz was nicer to the media.
Author:  good dolphin [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
We have had a few crank old fossil bob's at this place over the years
Author:  Nas [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
good dolphin wrote:
We have had a few crank old fossil bob's at this place over the years


JORR isn't really old.
Author:  Nas [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Rose and Bonds should be in the HoF. Ortiz isn't in the class of either.
Author:  BigW72 [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
David Oritz is a douche. He juiced and was caught. End of story.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015 ... story.html
Author:  Rod [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Nas wrote:
Rose and Bonds should be in the HoF. Ortiz isn't in the class of either.


Come on. Ortiz is a better player than Rose. Rose is like Dustin Pedroia with a longer career.
Author:  Jbi11s [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Rose got a few hits tho...
Author:  Nas [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Rose and Bonds should be in the HoF. Ortiz isn't in the class of either.


Come on. Ortiz is a better player than Rose. Rose is like Dustin Pedroia with a longer career.


All Ortiz had to do was grab a bat. Rose was still playing well before his last season too. Discounting Rose's production because he did it for 2 decades is foolish. I'm sure you don't discount Kareem's production because of his longevity. Besides we know 2nd basemen are usually worthless after 34.
Author:  formerlyknownas [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Unless you're banning him for steroids, he hit 500+ home runs. 3 WS rings. End of story. HoF. Unless banning him for steroids.

The only debate is whether he'll go in with a Twins or Red Sox hat.
Author:  Rod [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Rose and Bonds should be in the HoF. Ortiz isn't in the class of either.


Come on. Ortiz is a better player than Rose. Rose is like Dustin Pedroia with a longer career.


All Ortiz had to do was grab a bat. Rose was still playing well before his last season too. Discounting Rose's production because he did it for 2 decades is foolish. I'm sure you don't discount Kareem's production because of his longevity. Besides we know 2nd basemen are usually worthless after 34.


Rose earned his longevity. If he wasn't a cheat he'd be in the Hall of Fame. The point is, he's not close to as good as a premium power hitter. And that "all he had to do was grab a bat" stuff doesn't fly. The game is at the plate. If the DH position- and it is a position- didn't exist, he'd have played somewhere on the field and he would have made more than his share of errors and still been a great player. Just like Ted Williams.
Author:  Jbi11s [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Cmon man... That's just high brow trolling.
Author:  Rod [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Jbi11s wrote:
Cmon man... That's just high brow trolling.


How is that? Pete Rose is more like Matty Alou or Ichiro than he's like Bonds or Aaron. How can it be that homeruns are so important until we want to elevate Pete Rose?
Author:  Nas [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Cmon man... That's just high brow trolling.


How is that? Pete Rose is more like Matty Alou or Ichiro than he's like Bonds or Aaron. How can it be that homeruns are so important until we want to elevate Pete Rose?


Because he did more than just collect hits and he holds records.
Author:  Rod [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Cmon man... That's just high brow trolling.


How is that? Pete Rose is more like Matty Alou or Ichiro than he's like Bonds or Aaron. How can it be that homeruns are so important until we want to elevate Pete Rose?


Because he did more than just collect hits and he holds records.


Rose was a mediocre fielder at many positions in the Kris Bryant mold and a singles hitter. If Bryant plays twenty years he will likely have a better career than Rose, but I doubt he will be better than Ortiz. Ortiz slugged about .960 over a whole lot of postseason games and I'm pretty sure he's over .400 as a batter in World Series games.
Author:  Jbi11s [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
So we're throwing out the notion Ortiz was most likely juicing for a good chunk of his career? More than likely in the postseason as well?
Author:  Nas [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Cmon man... That's just high brow trolling.


How is that? Pete Rose is more like Matty Alou or Ichiro than he's like Bonds or Aaron. How can it be that homeruns are so important until we want to elevate Pete Rose?


Because he did more than just collect hits and he holds records.


Rose was a mediocre fielder at many positions in the Kris Bryant mold and a singles hitter. If Bryant plays twenty years he will likely have a better career than Rose, but I doubt he will be better than Ortiz. Ortiz slugged about .960 over a whole lot of postseason games and I'm pretty sure he's over .400 as a batter in World Series games.


It takes a lot to play 20+ years and not be a DH. Besides Rose played multiple positions and holds more records than any player in MLB history. He was a winner too.
Author:  Rod [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Jbi11s wrote:
So we're throwing out the notion Ortiz was most likely juicing for a good chunk of his career? More than likely in the postseason as well?


Well, that's for each fan to decide. Personally, I don't take as harsh a view of a guy risking long term bodily harm to be the best he can be as I do of a guy losing on purpose to cash bets. But that's just my viewpoint. Within in the context of his time I don't believe Ortiz was any more juiced than the average middle of the order hitter.
Author:  BigW72 [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Rose played in a completely different era of baseball. He was considered an elite player at the time of his career and has overwhelming career stats. Ortiz was another juiced power hitter in a crop of many juiced power hitters who didn't play the field.

Rose was a douche and compromised the outcome of games with his gambling. I don't care if they keep him out of the HoF forever, but the dude was elite for a very a huge portion of a very long career.
Author:  Rod [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Nas wrote:
It takes a lot to play 20+ years and not be a DH.


Yeah, like being on a National League team. I don't think hanging around playing a shitty first base for ten years is some great virtue.

Nas wrote:
Besides Rose played multiple positions and holds more records than any player in MLB history.


I have my doubts that is true, but I do know he holds the record for most outs made in a career.

Nas wrote:
He was a winner too.


Are you really going to make that argument with me?
Author:  Don Tiny [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
I'm just fine holding steroid/HGH users out of the Hall.

If I wanted to be pedantic, I'd say that while not everyone was on roids/growth, nearly everyone, or at the very least MANY, were on greenies, so the enhancement was far less on average between player A and player B ... meaning that trying to argue that all PEDs or eras of PED use are the same for the sake of superficial equivocation is too lazy for my tastes.

Rose is out because of betting. I mean, the one thing (other than, probably, raping the manager in the showers) that was most taboo in the sport/business ... and I'm more or less "pro" Charlie Hustle, although that's the kid in me that watched him play growing up influencing that more than likely.
Author:  Jbi11s [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
So we're throwing out the notion Ortiz was most likely juicing for a good chunk of his career? More than likely in the postseason as well?


Well, that's for each fan to decide. Personally, I don't take as harsh a view of a guy risking long term bodily harm to be the best he can be as I do of a guy losing on purpose to cash bets. But that's just my viewpoint. Within in the context of his time I don't believe Ortiz was any more juiced than the average middle of the order hitter.

I respect you as a poster, but this viewpoint is... Off to say the least.

MANY or all of those middle of the order hitters in Ortiz's era won't get HoF consideration either.

Rose is a complete scumbag, but he didn't juice. To each is own, but overinflated/dishonest stats bother me more than a guy placing bets.
Author:  Nas [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
It takes a lot to play 20+ years and not be a DH.


Yeah, like being on a National League team. I don't think hanging around playing a shitty first base for ten years is some great virtue.

Nas wrote:
Besides Rose played multiple positions and holds more records than any player in MLB history.


I have my doubts that is true, but I do know he holds the record for most outs made in a career.

Nas wrote:
He was a winner too.


Are you really going to make that argument with me?


We all know that Ortiz would have retired years ago if he played in the NBA. It takes a lot to play a sport at a high level for over 20 years.

That is one of the records he holds. His nearly 800 doubles is really impressive too. So is the fact that he has significantly more walks than strikeouts.

Winning championships is one of the things you've mentioned about Ortiz. Why wouldn't I point out that Rose won 3 WS and was MVP multiple times?
Author:  Rod [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Jbi11s wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
So we're throwing out the notion Ortiz was most likely juicing for a good chunk of his career? More than likely in the postseason as well?


Well, that's for each fan to decide. Personally, I don't take as harsh a view of a guy risking long term bodily harm to be the best he can be as I do of a guy losing on purpose to cash bets. But that's just my viewpoint. Within in the context of his time I don't believe Ortiz was any more juiced than the average middle of the order hitter.

I respect you as a poster, but this viewpoint is... Off to say the least.

MANY or all of those middle of the order hitters in Ortiz's era won't get HoF consideration either.

Rose is a complete scumbag, but he didn't juice. To each is own, but overinflated/dishonest stats bother me more than a guy placing bets.


But not many of them had numbers like Ortiz did.

I can understand the anger people have over the inflated stats, but the idea that there is a legitimate apples to apples comparison across eras is flawed to begin with. Look at the offensive numbers in the 30s. In at least one season the entire NL hit .300 as a league. There were conditions that caused that to occur. I tend to see the PED culture of the late 90s/early 00s as just a condition that affected the numbers.

But gambling on the game can never be tolerated. By the time the Sox threw the World Series in '19 the game had become a joke in the same way jai alai is. They weren't the first but it happened precious few times after that until Rose began managing a ball club.
Author:  Jbi11s [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
You're rationalizing.
Author:  Rod [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
It takes a lot to play 20+ years and not be a DH.


Yeah, like being on a National League team. I don't think hanging around playing a shitty first base for ten years is some great virtue.

Nas wrote:
Besides Rose played multiple positions and holds more records than any player in MLB history.


I have my doubts that is true, but I do know he holds the record for most outs made in a career.

Nas wrote:
He was a winner too.


Are you really going to make that argument with me?


We all know that Ortiz would have retired years ago if he played in the NBA. It takes a lot to play a sport at a high level for over 20 years.

That is one of the records he holds. His nearly 800 doubles is really impressive too. So is the fact that he has significantly more walks than strikeouts.

Winning championships is one of the things you've mentioned about Ortiz. Why wouldn't I point out that Rose won 3 WS and was MVP multiple times?


:lol: Rose wouldn't have played in the NBA until he was 40 either. And Rose has one MVP, I think in 1973? That would be one more than Ortiz so I guess you win that one.
Author:  Rod [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Jbi11s wrote:
You're rationalizing.


No, I'm not. It is what it is. And to try to guess who was taking what and when is simply futile. I'm fine with keeping all the known juicers out of the HOF.
Author:  Jbi11s [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Well all right then. We agree on that.
Author:  Nas [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
It takes a lot to play 20+ years and not be a DH.


Yeah, like being on a National League team. I don't think hanging around playing a shitty first base for ten years is some great virtue.

Nas wrote:
Besides Rose played multiple positions and holds more records than any player in MLB history.


I have my doubts that is true, but I do know he holds the record for most outs made in a career.

Nas wrote:
He was a winner too.


Are you really going to make that argument with me?


We all know that Ortiz would have retired years ago if he played in the NBA. It takes a lot to play a sport at a high level for over 20 years.

That is one of the records he holds. His nearly 800 doubles is really impressive too. So is the fact that he has significantly more walks than strikeouts.

Winning championships is one of the things you've mentioned about Ortiz. Why wouldn't I point out that Rose won 3 WS and was MVP multiple times?


:lol: Rose wouldn't have played in the NBA until he was 40 either. And Rose has one MVP, I think in 1973? That would be one more than Ortiz so I guess you win that one.


That was supposed to say MLB. Rose won a WS MVP too.
Author:  ZephMarshack [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
I can respect the position of keeping all known juicers out even though I disagree with it, as at least there's some consistency there. Just don't come at me trying to make exceptions for guys like Ortiz or Pettitte because they were nice guys or feel really bad about what they did or some other rubbish.
Author:  Nas [ Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranky Old Fossil Bob Ryan
If any suspected juicer deserves to be in it's Bonds.
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