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| Stairway To Copyright Court https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=99729 |
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| Author: | Don Tiny [ Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Stairway To Copyright Court |
Apparently someone feels like putting the phrase 'better late than never' to the test ... http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-36022876 Led Zeppelin founders Robert Plant and Jimmy Page must face trial in a copyright row over the song Stairway to Heaven, a US court has ruled. A Los Angeles district judge said there were enough similarities between the song and an instrumental by the band Spirit to let a jury decide. The trial has been scheduled for 10 May. Stairway to Heaven, released in 1971, is widely seen as one of the greatest rock compositions of all time. The copyright infringement action has been brought by Michael Skidmore, a trustee for the late Spirit guitarist Randy Wolfe, who played on the same bill as Led Zeppelin in the 1960s, and claims he should be given a writing credit on the track. Led Zeppelin guitarist Page and lead singer Plant are reputed to have written Stairway to Heaven in a remote cottage in Wales. However, Mr Skidmore has suggested the song came about after the band heard Spirit perform the instrumental Taurus while the bands toured together in 1968 and 1969. US district judge Gary Klausner said a jury could find "substantial" similarity between the first two minutes of Stairway and Taurus. (judge for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFHLO_2_THg ... personally I've heard far more eggregious lifting of riffs but it's not 100% baseless, but I wouldn't rule against Zeppelin personally) "While it is true that a descending chromatic four-chord progression is a common convention that abounds in the music industry, the similarities here transcend this core structure," Judge Klausner ruled. "What remains is a subjective assessment of the 'concept and feel' of two works... a task no more suitable for a judge than for a jury." He also said the trustee can get only 50% of any damages awarded, citing a 1967 contract Wolfe signed. |
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| Author: | bigfan [ Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Love these stories and then little blurb..."Contract Signed" |
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| Author: | Spaulding [ Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-1_9-z9rbY |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
I'm not sure why Zeppelin would wait until 1971 to record and release that song if they were copying it. The music is different 99% of the time, its Plant's lyrics that have gotten the band in trouble before. |
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| Author: | Don Tiny [ Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Frank Coztansa wrote: I'm not sure why Zeppelin would wait until 1971 to record and release that song if they were copying it. The music is different 99% of the time, its Plant's lyrics that have gotten the band in trouble before. I'm made to understand it's considerably more than just lyrics they've lifted without proper credit over the years. |
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| Author: | America [ Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Can you even copyright a chord progression? I'm not sure it is the exact same chord progression as Stairway either...it is kinda close though. I dont know, this seems a little silly. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Don Tiny wrote: Frank Coztansa wrote: I'm not sure why Zeppelin would wait until 1971 to record and release that song if they were copying it. The music is different 99% of the time, its Plant's lyrics that have gotten the band in trouble before. I'm made to understand it's considerably more than just lyrics they've lifted without proper credit over the years. Clearly. And it was far more egregious when they did it to poor old brothers from Chicago than when they did it to fellow rock star Randy California. |
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| Author: | redskingreg [ Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Then they went after Pearl Jam for "Given to Fly." Have to laugh, since Zeppelin has been caught blatantly stealing from so many bands. |
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| Author: | Dignified Rube [ Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
I've listened to Zeppelin since high school, first being amazed with them when I heard a friend of mine on the football team playing "Stairway" on the bus to an away game. I was hooked from then on, going on to collect every bootleg recording I could get my hands on. I've listened to them all, except for a few '69 and '77 shows. I'm also a student of Zep history, having read all the biographies from Richard Cole, etc. While I believe it's true that Page took the beginning sequence of Stairway from Spirit's Taurus, I would call it more being inspired rather than a blatant rip off. The other 95% of the song Page came up on his own, first working on it in his house and then developing it with his band mates. There's early recordings that exist of Stairway being practiced, with Plant using different lyrics and Jones working out the accompaniment. Those tapes alone prove that Page didn't rip the song off, because they developed the song to a large degree through improvisation. And if you listen to the live performance of the song, particularly from '73 onwards, Page's arrangement is so masterfully intricate and soloing so lyrical, he couldn't possibly have copied the song from any one else. If Zeppelin should be sued for copyright infringement, it should be by Bert Jansch. Page truly did rip off his songs, including Black Mountain Side, Going to California, Bron-y-aur Stomp and one or two others. Dazed and Confused, How Many More Times, I Can't Quit You and Babe I'm Gonna Leave you from the first album were all stolen from other artists, who should have been credited. Same thing with the Lemon Song and part of the lyrics to Thank You off the second album. Plant's phrase, "And if sun refuse to shine, I'll still be loving you", came from a Hendrix Song, I believe. Yes, Zeppelin took a lot of material from other artists, but what they did with it was totally original. But in this case with Stairway, I don't think Zep is liable and it will probably play out that way in court, once the jury here's Page's story, if he testifies. How would you like to be a juror on that case? |
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| Author: | Darkside [ Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
It's pretty clear it's ripped off. How many hundreds or thousands of songs have been ripped off from the Beatles? There are a finite number of chords and combinations that they work within. Most rock is based on 12 bar blues anyway so that further reduces the number of combinations. Whatever. This happened over 40 years ago. If you were gonna be salty be salty in 71 |
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| Author: | hnd [ Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
there are so many hit song artists that could sue each other into oblivion since they all use the C–G–Am–F progression in some sort of way. many nearly identical. the problem with this claim is that the only part of it that is the same is the bassline progression of the first 4 notes and that it starts in A minor the other progressions on stairway and that it after a few notes drops out of A minor completely. there is only so much music sounds you can make on a guitar and there is tons of overlap in music (many construe it as theft) but they are going to have to prove that it is so since much of the song is so entirely different. Its so different they are going to have to prove i think that he was familiar with the song at all. |
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| Author: | Telegram Sam [ Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
I can't remember if Ray Parker Jr. sued Huey Lewis and the News for "I Want a New Drug"'s similarity to the "Ghostbusters" theme, or vice versa, but the larger point is it made me imagine a Led Zeppelin version of the "Ghostbusters" theme, and it was pretty good. |
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| Author: | Regular Reader [ Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
I'm too lazy to look, but I'm left wondering how in the world any party can bring a copyright infringement case 45 years after the song hit number one on the charts. I can't envision how there is an exception to federal statutes of limitations in this case. I'd have guessed that sanctions should have been imposed against whoever filed this late action. |
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| Author: | Dignified Rube [ Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Regular Reader wrote: I'm too lazy to look, but I'm left wondering how in the world any party can bring a copyright infringement case 45 years after the song hit number one on the charts. I can't envision how there is an exception to federal statutes of limitations in this case. I'd have guessed that sanctions should have been imposed against whoever filed this late action. Statutes of Limitations can be "tolled" (meaning the time at which the clock begins ticking for the S of L is pushed back) by a number of equitable factors, but I have no idea what equitable factors would be relevant or involved here, if there are any. The judge already denied defendant's motion to dismiss, so no sanctions are forthcoming against plaintiff attorney. They pretty much amount to nothing anyway. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
hnd wrote: there are so many hit song artists that could sue each other into oblivion since they all use the C–G–Am–F progression in some sort of way. many nearly identical. the problem with this claim is that the only part of it that is the same is the bassline progression of the first 4 notes and that it starts in A minor the other progressions on stairway and that it after a few notes drops out of A minor completely. there is only so much music sounds you can make on a guitar and there is tons of overlap in music (many construe it as theft) but they are going to have to prove that it is so since much of the song is so entirely different. Its so different they are going to have to prove i think that he was familiar with the song at all. How about this one?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc |
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| Author: | Dignified Rube [ Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: I mentioned it in my post. Blatant rip off. Most of the songs off Zeppelin I were ripped off. But of course, Page inserted his bow solo into his version and the lyrics were changed by Plant. |
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| Author: | Matches Malone [ Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Vanilla Ice wrote: They're not the same.
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| Author: | Regular Reader [ Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Dignified Rube wrote: Regular Reader wrote: I'm too lazy to look, but I'm left wondering how in the world any party can bring a copyright infringement case 45 years after the song hit number one on the charts. I can't envision how there is an exception to federal statutes of limitations in this case. I'd have guessed that sanctions should have been imposed against whoever filed this late action. Statutes of Limitations can be "tolled" (meaning the time at which the clock begins ticking for the S of L is pushed back) by a number of equitable factors, but I have no idea what equitable factors would be relevant or involved here, if there are any. The judge already denied defendant's motion to dismiss, so no sanctions are forthcoming against plaintiff attorney. They pretty much amount to nothing anyway. I looked (thanks). Apparently there is a recent SCt. decision (Raging Bull case) that effectively restarts the statute of limitations each time a "work" is re-released. Best of/Special Re-issue/new format (i.e. CD, digital download, etc.) apparently fit the bill. The only thing more peculiar than the reasoning behind the decision is the majority opinion's author (Ginsburg) & the justices that joined in (Kagan, Sotomayor, Alito, Scalia & of course Thomas) I'd be willing to bet that those six never concurred in total(alone) on any other opinion in history. |
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| Author: | Jaw Breaker [ Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Regular Reader wrote: Apparently there is a recent SCt. decision (Raging Bull case) that effectively restarts the statute of limitations each time a "work" is re-released. Best of/Special Re-issue/new format (i.e. CD, digital download, etc.) apparently fit the bill. Sounds similar to how Disney is able to keep extending the copyright on Mickey Mouse. |
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| Author: | Erotic Lawyer [ Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Yup Zeppelin ripped off a bunch of stuff. They did it so much better though!!! Theoretically everything is a cover song there are only 12 notes so it has all been played before. The zep stuff is more blatant. Still you don't hear the ghost of little wing all pissed off at yellow Ledbetter. |
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| Author: | Dignified Rube [ Wed May 18, 2016 10:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
The more I read about this case, the more I think that Page and Plant are in danger of losing. Are Zeppelin's rip-offs of other artists and subsequent settlements admissible as evidence in this case, to show a pattern? If so, they're in deep doo doo with a jury. |
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| Author: | Dignified Rube [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Some interesting details coming out of the courthouse in LA. The one I found most interesting is that Led Zeppelin played one of Spirit's songs of their debut album called "Fresh Garbage" during their ending medlies when they toured in '69. I have heard bootleg recordings of them doing it, so I know exactly what is being talked about. But then Page claims that he never heard the Spirit track until recently, when his son-in-law told him about the controversy a few years back. What a bunch of crap. I believe Page is lying through his teeth, because he would have had to listen to "Fresh Garbage" on LP multiple times to get it down before he could perform it live. And if this is true, he undoubtedly heard Spirit off the same album. Preceding the guitar part on Taurus, people have missed that there's string synthesizers, which Page and Jones happened to mimic with a recorder sound on Stairway. The proof is in the pudding. How ironic it is that Page has to lie now to protect his legacy after his great career. I suppose the "Wheels of Justice" grind slowly, though perfectly after all, and Page is now getting his. I do think less of him now, which is sad. |
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| Author: | Chus [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Fool in the Courthouse Misty Mountain Ripoff Babe, I'm Gonna Sue You Hey Hey, What Can I Steal Whole Lotta Theft |
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| Author: | newper [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Apparently he testified that he owned the album but he hadn't heard the song. It seems close enough that if I were on the jury, I am going to side with Spirit. |
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| Author: | Zippy-The-Pinhead [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
newper wrote: Apparently he testified that he owned the album but he hadn't heard the song. It seems close enough that if I were on the jury, I am going to side with Spirit. I thought they toured together. That would make it hard to deny having heard the song. That said, supposedly the same riff can be found on songs from over 100 years ago which would effectively kill the lawsuit. |
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| Author: | newper [ Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote: newper wrote: Apparently he testified that he owned the album but he hadn't heard the song. It seems close enough that if I were on the jury, I am going to side with Spirit. I thought they toured together. That would make it hard to deny having heard the song. That said, supposedly the same riff can be found on songs from over 100 years ago which would effectively kill the lawsuit. Yes they did tour together, although Zeppelin says they don't remember hearing that song during the tour period. I still say give them money. |
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| Author: | Chus [ Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
newper wrote: Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote: newper wrote: Apparently he testified that he owned the album but he hadn't heard the song. It seems close enough that if I were on the jury, I am going to side with Spirit. I thought they toured together. That would make it hard to deny having heard the song. That said, supposedly the same riff can be found on songs from over 100 years ago which would effectively kill the lawsuit. Yes they did tour together, although Zeppelin says they don't remember hearing that song during the tour period. It worked for Ronald Reagan. |
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| Author: | pittmike [ Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
https://www.yahoo.com/music/led-zeppeli ... stone.html They win. |
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| Author: | Regular Reader [ Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
It appears as if that would've been an interesting trial to watch, if only for the lunacy & incompetency. |
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| Author: | pittmike [ Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stairway To Copyright Court |
From what I read Page and Plant made folks laugh and impressed with their British style. Simply listening to the beginning of each song I thought they were sunk. It must have been more complicated than that. |
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