Bret still hasn't tapped.

Listened to Prichard's take on this last night.


Bret is a bitch and was completely unreasonable. Thank God Vince did what he did, one of the coolest things ever.


Bret did manage to make a wrestler destroying TVs in defiance of his promoter boring, so he has that going for him.

Cornette doing 13 minutes on the Screwjob (older vid, not from his podcasts) ..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VfXWbsFAG8

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

That was a great Prichard episode.

People look back at it and call Vince the bad guy, but you have to understand the war between WCW & WWF at the time. Vince had seen Luger, Hall, & Nash leave and providing an instant ratings boost to WCW. The traditional way for a champion ending their run in a territory is to drop the belt, ensuring a smooth transition to the next guy. Vince was afraid Bret would leave with the belt or just quit altogether, causing PR damage to the company. Bret was being unreasonable with the circumstances of dropping the belt; drop it in December at the PPV or drop it when they got back to the states. Vince made a sound business decision and it led to the "Mr. McMahon" character while Bret regretted his decision to move to WCW (money was better but the booking of him was horrible).

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Bert was lucky to even be champ. That choice almost killed the company.

Vince went with the safe choice. Shawn was "injured" and had an attitude; Taker didn't get over as champ; Austin wasn't ready. After those top 4, you had Mankind, Owen, Goldust, and Faarooq.

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Well...Shawn lost his smile.

Imagine if Michaels hadn't hurt his back against Taker in 98, which led to dropping the belt to Austin.

Michaels pulls his "creative control", beats Austin at Mania, does the company survive?

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How long was Taker's run?

I was kind of out of the loop in those years (because of Bret mostly)

WM 13 to Summerslam '97 (where Bret won after Shawn hit Taker with the chair, leading to HBK heel turn and feud with Taker, then Bret).

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Is that how it went down?

I thought the Stone Cold thing was happening no matter what. Maybe Prichard is full of shit but he said Bret vs Austin at 14 got serious consideration.

Ah, right.

So was Bret more OVER than Taker?

I hate Bret, if you haven't noticed haha

I think Austin and HBK had a decent enough relationship that Shawn wouldn't be able to pull that BS on Vince. Austin was on fire at the time; faces always went over heels for the title at WM until Triple H in 2000. I think Shawn and Triple H might have spun off into something after WM with Hunter as the face.

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Shawn/Hunter was great in 02.

I don't know. Wasn't there something about Taker waiting for Shawn in Gorilla if he didn't do the job?

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So this thing got me back into wrestling and Triple H vs the Rock at 37 straight PPVs pushed me back out.

Pretty much. Taker did a backdrop on Shawn at the Rumble during a casket match. The way Shawn took it fucked up a bunch of his vertebrae. IIRC, he had a really light schedule to limp along to Mania, and he was gone for a good bit after that.

Bret/Austin was the best thing about WM13. I could see 14 getting serious consideration if Bret was going to stick around.

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Heel Bret was. That double turn at WM 13 between him and Austin really made him hated. His anti-American character got great heat.

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Bert "The Himtan" Hart!

But no, you're wrong, Bret Hart was a franchise player for the WWF, it was never stupid to make him the champion. He always drew, he always got heat. Maybe Vince shouldn't have been so bad at running his business that he couldn't afford to honor a contract anymore.

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A failure to have a #3 behind Hunter and Rock; Jericho had the best chance, but Vince didn't like his size at the time.

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Jericho was the drizzling shits when he got to the WWF. Even I remember being disappointed that he finally got to the WWF and had Mr. Hughes as a tag-team partner or something. I don't know if guys were just dogging it with him to prove a point or what, but one of the shoot interviews said Vince put him in an angle with X-Pac because if Waltman couldn't get a good match out of Jericho, no one was going to, and that would be the end of him. That would have been an interesting twist if he had busted out of the WWF like three months in.

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Draw what?

The 28 people that showed up to Monday Night Raw when it was held in the original SCORE studio?


He got heat at the end. His run as a babyface was pathetic. I doubt Im the only one who was turned off by the idea of making a guy with negative charisma the face of the company.

But I trust you know more than I do about that time period. I just hate Bret.

Bullshit, they got 20,000+ in the United Center (the one time they didn't run the Rosemont Horizon) for Bret-Owen. Bret drew fine, it was Diesel whose run at the top was a dark night of the soul for business.

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You give me the drizzling shits any time you try to talk wrestling. This isnt the hockey section. You dont know nearly as much as you think

Jericho was bad when he arrived because thats what Vince did with guys who came over from WCW. Jericho was always capable of being a top guy he just had to prove himself to Vince

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Seems like you're a little biased in favor of Bret.

Also, originally, I was thinking of the first title run. WM 9 era.


Bret was a terrible face. He was pretty decent as an American hating heel.


Vince doing the worked shoot where he said to Bret you had ZERO PERSONALITY was great.

I hated Bret, but he did have a great nickname - The Excellence of Execution.

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I'm repeating what I heard from either a Cornette or a Prichard shoot where Vince was pissed with the quality of Jericho's matches early on. What's your issue with me here?

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Bret being a face with no personality, in addition to no exciting in-ring moves, did hurt him in a time where athleticism was overtaking technical prowess in the ring. At least heel Bret injected some personality into him.

Hogan being allowed to beat Yokozuna at WM 9 did hurt Bret's status as a babyface. His matches were Owen were great and drew some good money.

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

Jericho had two things going against him in Vince's eyes- size and a WCW alum. His first appearance was incredible, but they ruined it by having the Rock run him down (and no rivalry resulted from that!). Unless you were Shawn Michaels, Vince did not like "smaller" wrestlers.

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Sherman remarked, "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" Grant looked up. "Yes," he replied, followed by a puff. "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."

I never cared for Hart, but the guys who looked like the biggest bitches of all as a result of the screwjob were indisputably Michaels and Hunter.

Frank gets it. Vince could pretend to be pissed all he wanted at Jericho after his arrival, but vince did it. It wasn't like Jericho somehow forgot to wrestle. I am a huge Xpac fan, jericho was way better than him.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Why?

You gotta get in line to hate Xpac
-Jerry Lawler