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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:59 pm 
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I was really surprised that Ilitch didn't buy the team and move them downtown to the new Olympia they're building, but then Ilitch also has blood feuds with the other Michigan-based sports owners (Bill Davidson, Peter Karmanos).

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:02 pm 
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As I've said before, let me know when the Bulls sign a superstar free agent.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:04 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Didn't mean to imply Boston has a better history, just that they were able to acquire talent outside the draft that led directly to a ring.

I am definitely leaving off Wallace and Booz. Wallace was a decrepit 32 year old 6'6 center with about three skills (jumping, hustling, and defense) all of which were declining. Signing someone like that is not exactly making a splash. Didn't expect anything out of Booz other than what he's given us so far. They signed him because he was the only one left. I'll accept your points about Kobe and the rest.
That's revisionist history. Wallace was a big free agent signing.
From the NY Times following the signing...
Ben Wallace, the defensive player of the year and the anchor of the tough-minded Detroit Pistons, shook up the N.B.A. last night when he agreed to a four-year, $60 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, according to two people with knowledge of Wallace's plans.
I do agree that Boozer was a bit of a consolation prize, but as FF noted there was no chance that any of the big 3 were coming to the Bulls due to their handshake agreement.

Edit: FF beat me to it so...what he said.


I am not revising anything. Check it out yourself. Look at the age, the skills, the teams chances with Wallace, and the money...is it still something that should have "shook up" the league? His skills were redundant. The bulls were already a good defensive team. They lacked scoring, which a defensive specialist wasn't going to solve.
You're now making a different argument. I would agree with the fact that the Wallace signing didn't pan out. However, it was - when it occurred - a big free agent signing. The fact that it didn't ultimately "shake up the league" doesn't change the initial perception of the signing.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:07 pm 
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Peoria Matt wrote:
As I've said before, let me know when the Bulls sign a superstar free agent.

It can be argued that LeBron is the only superstar free agent that signed with a different team since Shaq. It just doesn't happen often at all.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:14 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Didn't mean to imply Boston has a better history, just that they were able to acquire talent outside the draft that led directly to a ring.

I am definitely leaving off Wallace and Booz. Wallace was a decrepit 32 year old 6'6 center with about three skills (jumping, hustling, and defense) all of which were declining. Signing someone like that is not exactly making a splash. Didn't expect anything out of Booz other than what he's given us so far. They signed him because he was the only one left. I'll accept your points about Kobe and the rest.
That's revisionist history. Wallace was a big free agent signing.
From the NY Times following the signing...
Ben Wallace, the defensive player of the year and the anchor of the tough-minded Detroit Pistons, shook up the N.B.A. last night when he agreed to a four-year, $60 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, according to two people with knowledge of Wallace's plans.
I do agree that Boozer was a bit of a consolation prize, but as FF noted there was no chance that any of the big 3 were coming to the Bulls due to their handshake agreement.

Edit: FF beat me to it so...what he said.


I am not revising anything. Check it out yourself. Look at the age, the skills, the teams chances with Wallace, and the money...is it still something that should have "shook up" the league? His skills were redundant. The bulls were already a good defensive team. They lacked scoring, which a defensive specialist wasn't going to solve.
You're now making a different argument. I would agree with the fact that the Wallace signing didn't pan out. However, it was - when it occurred - a big free agent signing. The fact that it didn't ultimately "shake up the league" doesn't change the initial perception of the signing.


Yes but I am not constructing the argument in hindsight, I'm trying to speak at the time of the signing. Regardless of "perception", Wallace signing wasn't a big deal strategically in terms of plotting a way to the finals. I'll give you perception, but that's not what I care about. It generated buzz but wouldn't belong in the same conversation with, say Melo, if he signed here. Even though I'm not a fan, that would be strategically a big signing, which is really what matters as you know.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:15 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:
As I've said before, let me know when the Bulls sign a superstar free agent.

It can be argued that LeBron is the only superstar free agent that signed with a different team since Shaq. It just doesn't happen often at all.


I would argue but I'm kind of tired right now.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:08 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
The Wallace signing turned out poorly. But he was a big name free agent. That really cant be denied. Iirc, he was the biggest name that summer. You cant just dismiss him choosing to come here because it turned out poorly. And Boozer was a multiple all star who turned down a max offer from New Jersey to come here. These guys weren't mid-level guys, as much as you want to portray them that way. They were definitely big names. Boozer just happened to be overshadowed by the other names of that summer. But he's still been a better signing than Amare and probably more productive than Bosh has been.

Like denis said, the whole "Chicago cant get star players" thing is based on an incredibly small sample size. And I would think you would understand the risk of drawing grand conclusions from such a small sample size. We are talking about 2 guys from 14 years ago and 3 guys from 4 years ago. It's not like a franchise-altering free agent is on the market every summer and perpetually spurns Chicago. I think it's clear because of the Kobe/KG reports, our market, our roster, and our coaching/management that players would be willing to come here. Although I suppose this argument will come up again if Melo resigns with NY and Love signs with LA in the next two summers.


Yes, I understand the weaknesses and fallacies that result from drawing grand conclusions from small sample sizes - that's fine and valid. But as you said, franchise-changing stars just don't become available every year. Since the occurrences are rare, I think it's safe to say the sample size will always necessarily be small, and we'd be fine with going with the size we have in trying to figure out why the top players don't come here to play.

I don't always think it's something management is doing wrong. There are simply factors beyond anyone's control, such as weather, as CH point out. That's just tough luck - no fault of Krause or GarPax there. To be honest, I think you pointing out that KB and KG did want to come here has made me rethink this a little bit, but on the other hand I don't think the 2001 or 2010 can be dismissed because of the time passed and/or the collusion that may or may not have occurred. I actually think the Bulls should be commended for swinging for the fences both times, especially in 2010 since they had to make some tough roster decisions to create enough space to be a player. If I had to guess, I think it would be weather. Money is irrelevant since there is a strong universal cap structure in place that standardizes salaries all over the league, unless you live in a state free of income tax. Marketing opportunities obviously differ from city to city, but that seems to be less of a concern nowadays with the increased reach of nontraditional media technologies, plus the NBA's own marketing machinery. This means LBJ is going to be known, whether he plays in NY or Milwaukee. TMac, Hill, Duncan, and the 2010 triumvirate all chose warmer climates over other options, though this is also admittedly simplistic to use as a partial causal factor. Short of relocating to a coastal city, I'm not sure what the Bulls (as a city to twenty-something hedonists with the entire country at their fingertips, and not necessarily as an organization) can do to become a more attractive option during those rare times when someone like KD or LBJ becomes a free agent.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:11 pm 
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New York has the same weather problem. And it's not like they play their sport outdoors. It's hard for me to believe weather is really a serious factor in a player's decision, but maybe it is.

I also don't think it's fair to use Duncan. I know he flirted a bit with Orlando but he's never changed teams and likely was never going to.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:17 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
New York has the same weather problem. And it's not like they play their sport outdoors. It's hard for me to believe weather is really a serious factor in a player's decision, but maybe it is.

I also don't think it's fair to use Duncan. I know he flirted a bit with Orlando but he's never changed teams and likely was never going to.


This is tough for me as an Illinoisan to say but NY is NY, right? It just is, and it's always going to be the most attractive city in the country. Weather to me is more about lifestyle. Chilling, going out, social life, etc. Much easier to do 'round the clock in warmer climates than it is in the midwest. That's a big thing for guys in their twenties, for the most part. It definitely was for LBJ.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:22 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
New York has the same weather problem. And it's not like they play their sport outdoors. It's hard for me to believe weather is really a serious factor in a player's decision, but maybe it is.

I also don't think it's fair to use Duncan. I know he flirted a bit with Orlando but he's never changed teams and likely was never going to.


This is tough for me as an Illinoisan to say but NY is NY, right? It just is, and it's always going to be the most attractive city in the country. Weather to me is more about lifestyle. Chilling, going out, social life, etc. Much easier to do 'round the clock in warmer climates than it is in the midwest. That's a big thing for guys in their twenties, for the most part. It definitely was for LBJ.

Right, but then going back to the OP, you're saying the Chicago nightlife is comparable to Detroit's?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:24 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
New York has the same weather problem. And it's not like they play their sport outdoors. It's hard for me to believe weather is really a serious factor in a player's decision, but maybe it is.

I also don't think it's fair to use Duncan. I know he flirted a bit with Orlando but he's never changed teams and likely was never going to.


This is tough for me as an Illinoisan to say but NY is NY, right? It just is, and it's always going to be the most attractive city in the country. Weather to me is more about lifestyle. Chilling, going out, social life, etc. Much easier to do 'round the clock in warmer climates than it is in the midwest. That's a big thing for guys in their twenties, for the most part. It definitely was for LBJ.

Right, but then going back to the OP, you're saying the Chicago nightlife is comparable to Detroit's?


:lol:

Most definitely not, but I think most if not all cold cities outside of NY and maybe Brooklyn (as a spot, not as a team/organization) would be eliminated from consideration anyway, in general.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:49 am 
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By the way, I think if you assume you're not going to be a major free agent's first choice for a variety of reasons, it would be wise to make trade offers for stars who are set to explore free agency, or who have indicated a desire to move on, instead of competing for their services in the open market. The price will be higher, but at least you employ one and then have the right to offer him more money than anyone else when his contract is up. This is sort of a roundabout way to acquire a star, but it's something you may need to do to compete against the more attractive (justly or not) destinations.

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