I like Leonard but at this stage of his career he isn't the scorer NIQUE was. He has yet to demonstrate that he is a go to scorer. Didn't show up against OKC last year when it mattered most. He should have been able to pick up the slack once it was obvious that Duncan didn't have it any longer.

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Did you read the thread? His points per 100 possessions this year is one point lower than Dominique's career high, and he's way more efficient. You're just wrong.

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It's also funny that we have only focused on scoring. If we look at their overall games the comparison just gets silly.

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One guy averaged 25 points and 7 rebounds a game and shot 46% from the field over a damn near 20 year career. The other guy is averaging 15 points and 6 rebounds after 6 years and you're telling everyone that he's a better scorer and rebounder. His actual numbers say you're wrong. His career year still comes up short when it comes to what Dominique actually averaged over nearly 20 years.

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It's funny you keep mentioning 46%. You do realize that hurts your argument rather than helping it, right?

Also, the rest of your post is just arguing who had the better career and ignoring advanced stats because they hurt your argument.

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In the end players like Kawhi are more useful/effective/memorable than players like Nique. You're nothing to me if you score 50 and the guy you're guarding scores 40.

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I understand that 46% isn't better than what Leonard is shooting today. If he plays 20 years there won't be much of a difference.

No one gives a crap about advanced stats when comparing players. If I ask you how many points does Kawhi score, you aren't going to tell me 40 per 100 possessions. If I ask you how many rebounds does he get a game, you aren't going to tell me 11 per 100 possessions.

Considering the Spurs pace of play is faster than the teams that Dominique has been on all you're saying is Leonard isn't on the floor long enough. You know what happens when players play a ton of mins? They get tired. You know what happens when players get tired? They aren't as effective.

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You're all over the place here. You want to use Nique's point totals per game, but then want to dismiss his FG% per game because he was "tired".

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... aka01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ido01.html

It's really simple. If you are in favor of ignoring additional, useful data and just want to look at traditional stats, I can see how you would think Nique is better. If you look at all the data available, the choice is pretty easily Kawhi. And that's without even mentioning that Kawhi is on his way to being possibly the best defensive player in history.

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I've looked at their numbers. Dominique shot 48% for most of his career. That's great for a scorer. A guy like Kobe would have killed for that.

A lower usage rate doesn't make him a better scorer or rebounder. I'm sure you can find bench guys with low usage rates that project to be better than all time greats. They give titles out for traditional numbers. They don't pass out scoring and rebounding titles out for hypothetical numbers.

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FavreFan doing work in this thread.

Advanced metrics aren't hypothetical numbers. The only reason you are saying so is because it hurts your argument. Rebounding percentage also doesn't really have anything to do with usage rate, and it's not even close to a hypothetical stat. Kawhi grabs more available rebounds than Dominique did. That's it.

Kawhi's numbers were good enough to win DPOY twice and finish 2nd in MVP voting last year. Also good enough to win a Finals MVP. My guess is he finishes with more All Star appearances than Dominique as well, although that's just speculation. If you want to argue career and longevity, that's one thing, but Kawhi right now is clearly better than Dominique ever was at his best.

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Wake me when Kawhi averages 30 points and 8 rebounds in a season. Kawhi wasn't the leader of any of those teams and he still may not be now.

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Ok. Good talk. I look forward to hearing you rank MLB players based off RBI totals this upcoming season.

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That ain't shit if you can't guard anyone. Melo is this generation's Nique. Both are more capable versions of someone like Ricky Davis - scoring, some ancillary stats, and not much else.

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I won't be talking about hypothetical RBI and home runs.

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Great scorers aren't usually asked to defend because they need to use that energy on offense. Dominique is a HoF player and Marshmelo isn't.

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That's unequivocally false. Just look at Jordan, LeBron, young Kobe, young D Wade, etc.

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Also Carmelo is a no doubter HoFer. There's zero chance he doesn't get in.

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Those guys are exceptions and Wade shouldn't be on the list with those 3. He was never an elite defender. He just blocked shots in the way AI got steals.

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Yup. And players need to play D as much as they need to score. Scoring 50 while giving up 50 is no achievement. Score 25 while holding your man to 10 and you'll get the gameball each night.

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FF, Vegan, et al...I know you're both significantly younger than me. Did either of you see 'Nique in his prime? He was a stud. Top 3 for a few yrs. Kawhi has become a great player but stats be damned...he's not the player DW was (keeping in mind the respective eras).

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Wade was a great defensive player his first few years in the league. And those guys aren't exceptions. I can keep going with guys like Duncan, Kawhi, and Garnett but then you're gonna say they weren't great scorers and I don't feel like proving you wrong all over again.

Even guys like Shaq and Durant were noticeably better players when playing good defense. Durant is a better player now than he was three years ago.

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Kawhi is a top 3 player this year and was last year. I'm not trying to discount Nique, but you're definitely discounting how good Kawhi is right now.

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I don't think I saw him at all

Listen, I know he was a stud. But he excelled at just one facet of the game. Without necessarily pointing to Kawhi, I just think the more dynamic players generally add more value to a given team. I think an ideal comp for Nique is Melo - the career numbers are eerily similar.

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He rebounded the ball too. He just didn't have to play defense.

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His rebounding numbers were standard for his position. Not remarkable but not below average either.

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Hard to tell if you're talking about Melo or Nique still.

"Didn't have to" is an odd way of putting it.

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I don't entirely discount stats but we all know the style of play, enforcement of rules, etc have a significant affect on the data. If you had seen him play I suspect you'd feel differently.

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Marshmelo could never score like Dominique and Marshmelo isn't in the same class as Dominique. In a much tougher league Dominique was a top 3 scorer and top 10 player most of his career. He destroyed all time great defenders like Scottie even late in his career. Bird and Jordan kept him from the Finals because both were much better players. BTW Bird wasn't a good defender either but he'll always be better than 15 points and 6 rebounds Leonard.

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"Much tougher league" doesn't mean anything. It's your opinion and there's no way to back it up.

Bird was a great overall player. Dominique and Carmelo are great scorers and good rebounders, hence the comparison. But even at his absolute scoring best, Nique was about the same of a scorer as Kawhi is this year, except less efficient.

Do you know how hard it is for a swing player to win DPOY? And Kawhi has already won it twice. His PER and Win Shares crush Nique's best seasons.

But it looks like you're already conceding the better player argument and are content to repeatedly go back to career numbers. That's fine.

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