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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
It's a chicken and egg argument though. Small market owners have to decide between overpaying players to get them to come here or being perennially terrible, called cheap, and letting the fan base become apathetic. It sucks that Atlanta had to overpay for Joe Johnson but the system made it the only viable option.
Yeah, except the Bulls were pretty much forced to overpay Boozer to get a "big-name" to come here.

Not true.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:31 pm 
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Phil McCracken wrote:
spmack wrote:
3 worst deals in basketball history:

Jim McIlvaine (7 yr/33.6 mil)

Adonal Foyle (6 yr/42 mil)

Eddie Robinson (5 yr/32 mil)

That E Rob deal was pretty awful. That was still under Krause right?

Yup. Pretty sure the current regime just ate the contract right after taking over.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:37 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Again, Im not sure what you are basing any of this on. You dont have to suck "for a really long time" to get a HoF player. Why would you think that?
A small market team is going to have a terrible time attracting top level free agents. Therefore, they need to hope they hit the lottery and can somehow keep them. The best chance is to have the most ping pong balls.
FavreFan wrote:
What are you missing here? The owners do have a choice, and its the opposite of the choice you think they are forced into. By giving JJ a max deal after getting swept by 25 PPG by Orlando, Atlanta's owner guaranteed that they will not be a contender in the next 5 years. The obvious choice wouldve been to let someone like the Knicks overpay for him and let him handicap their franchise, then go the RC Buford/Sam Presti route of making smart financial decisions, drafting well, staying flexible with the cap and building around a guy you KNOW can be a franchise guy.
I'm not missing anything. The choice is either sign Joe Johnson and be an above average team that wins 55-60% of their games or let him walk and win 40% and cross your fingers that the next Derrick Rose or Tim Duncan falls to them. That's not an easy choice to make because Atlanta does make more money by being a playoff team. You can stop citing RC Buford and Sam Presti though. They both lucked into future hall of famers. That's not a business model because there are a limited number in the league and most of them eventually funnel to big markets by the time they are in their prime.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Phil McCracken wrote:
If they tanked for a few years traded off their pieces for draft picks and somehow landed a star then yes they would be better off. More than any other sport you need a superstar to compete in the NBA. I don't think any of us would argue that Joe Johnson is a superstar.
That's the point. You are giving up a good team for a bad team and crossed fingers that you get a superstar in the draft. The system sucks. I can't blame a team for wanting to be playoff team even if they have to overpay a little rather than hoping that 3 years later they'll get the next Durant.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:40 pm 
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beni hanna wrote:
Phil McCracken wrote:
That E Rob deal was pretty awful. That was still under Krause right?

Yup. Pretty sure the current regime just ate the contract right after taking over.


That was the last time he played in the NBA. I think he was in the D-League and some Canadian league for a minute...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:40 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Again, Im not sure what you are basing any of this on. You dont have to suck "for a really long time" to get a HoF player. Why would you think that?
A small market team is going to have a terrible time attracting top level free agents. Therefore, they need to hope they hit the lottery and can somehow keep them. The best chance is to have the most ping pong balls.
FavreFan wrote:
What are you missing here? The owners do have a choice, and its the opposite of the choice you think they are forced into. By giving JJ a max deal after getting swept by 25 PPG by Orlando, Atlanta's owner guaranteed that they will not be a contender in the next 5 years. The obvious choice wouldve been to let someone like the Knicks overpay for him and let him handicap their franchise, then go the RC Buford/Sam Presti route of making smart financial decisions, drafting well, staying flexible with the cap and building around a guy you KNOW can be a franchise guy.
I'm not missing anything. The choice is either sign Joe Johnson and be an above average team that wins 55-60% of their games or let him walk and win 40% and cross your fingers that the next Derrick Rose or Tim Duncan falls to them. That's not an easy choice to make because Atlanta does make more money by being a playoff team. You can stop citing RC Buford and Sam Presti though. They both lucked into future hall of famers. That's not a business model because there are a limited number in the league and most of them eventually funnel to big markets by the time they are in their prime.

Lucking into future HOF's is pretty much how you win in the NBA. Boston traded for some chips and won a title but please tell me the amount of teams that signed big name max contract free agents and then went on to lead their team to a championship. I mean the Lakers lucked into the Hornets trading them Kobe for Vlade Divac.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:41 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You can stop citing RC Buford and Sam Presti though. They both lucked into future hall of famers. That's not a business model because there are a limited number in the league and most of them eventually funnel to big markets by the time they are in their prime.

San Antonio has still kept themselves as a contender even with Tim Duncan in decline. Duncan hasn't been a superstar player for probably the last two seasons. They draft smart and scout better than anyone overseas, and sign the right guys to come off the bench. They don't overpay for garbage.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:43 pm 
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I dont think you understand why Im citing RC Buford and Sam Presti. By being smart financially and smart with personnel decisions they kept Durant and Duncan from fleeing to a bigger market.

How long was Miami terrible for before they got Wade? Not a really long time

How long were the Jazz terrible before they got Deron? Definitely not a really long time

How about the Celtics before KG or Ray? Not a really long time

Did the NJ Nets have to win the lottery to become great during the Kidd era?

How long was Orlando horrible before Dwight? Not a really long time

How about between the Grant Hill Pistons and the 7 straight ECF Pistons? Not a really long time.

Meanwhile, the Knicks are the biggest market in the league and have sucked for longer than anyone save the Clippers. Kinda blows a big hole in your theory.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
San Antonio has still kept themselves as a contender even with Tim Duncan in decline. Duncan hasn't been a superstar player for probably the last two seasons. They draft smart and scout better than anyone overseas, and sign the right guys to come off the bench. They don't overpay for garbage.
They've only been marginally better than the Hawks though in the playoffs. They've been better in the regular season but the Spurs are not really contenders any more either.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:54 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
By giving JJ a max deal after getting swept by 25 PPG by Orlando, Atlanta's owner guaranteed that they will not be a contender in the next 5 years.


it led to them taking out Orlando the next year though :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
By giving JJ a max deal after getting swept by 25 PPG by Orlando, Atlanta's owner guaranteed that they will not be a contender in the next 5 years.


it led to them taking out Orlando the next year though :wink:

:lol: That's because Orlando's management hates Dwight Howard for some reason.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:58 pm 
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The nature of basketball, wherein one star player is more responsible for a team's fortunes than in any other, pretty much precludes ever having a fair and equitable league where all thirty teams have close to an equal chance. The NBA has been like this since its inception. Won't change, unless basketball were to somehow become awash in the randomness that besets football, hockey, and baseball.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:01 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
I dont think you understand why Im citing RC Buford and Sam Presti. By being smart financially and smart with personnel decisions they kept Durant and Duncan from fleeing to a bigger market.
That's step 2. Atlanta never got step 1 which is win the lottery. Put RC Buford on Atlanta and he's making the same decision between "suck" and "be an average playoff team".
FavreFan wrote:
How long was Miami terrible for before they got Wade? Not a really long time

How long were the Jazz terrible before they got Deron? Definitely not a really long time

How about the Celtics before KG or Ray? Not a really long time

Did the NJ Nets have to win the lottery to become great during the Kidd era?

How long was Orlando horrible before Dwight? Not a really long time

How about between the Grant Hill Pistons and the 7 straight ECF Pistons? Not a really long time.
Miami was bad for most of it's history. They had like two seasons where they made it past the first round. The Jazz had two future hall of famers. The Celtics are a big market and rich in history. They can attract free agents. The Nets are in the biggest market in the country. Orlando was good with Shaq and Penny. Once again, they won the lottery! Grant Hill was a future hall of famer(or would have been).

FavreFan wrote:
Meanwhile, the Knicks are the biggest market in the league and have sucked for longer than anyone save the Clippers. Kinda blows a big hole in your theory.
My theory doesn't state that big market teams will always be good. Bad management will mean the team is bad. However, small market teams have to choose between being average but overpaying or being bad and hoping they hit the lottery. I don't see how you don't see that when you look at the current state of the NBA. The only teams that are succeeding either hit the draft lottery or are in big markets.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:04 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
The nature of basketball, wherein one star player is more responsible for a team's fortunes than in any other, pretty much precludes ever having a fair and equitable league where all thirty teams have close to an equal chance. The NBA has been like this since its inception. Won't change, unless basketball were to somehow become awash in the randomness that besets football, hockey, and baseball.

I think that parity is not always a good thing anyway. Sometimes it benefits a league to have dominant teams that stay that way for awhile and draw fan interest. The NFL is too random for me sometimes.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:06 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
The nature of basketball, wherein one star player is more responsible for a team's fortunes than in any other, pretty much precludes ever having a fair and equitable league where all thirty teams have close to an equal chance. The NBA has been like this since its inception. Won't change, unless basketball were to somehow become awash in the randomness that besets football, hockey, and baseball.
I agree. That's why the system needs to be designed to stop owners from overpaying because it's the best option they have. It's bad for the league.

Not only does the NBA lack parity, but it creates a situation where the only way that other teams can compete is to overpay or get lucky. Many GM's don't have a chance unlike MLB or the NHL where you can build through the minor leagues. NBA minor leagues are useless.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:09 pm 
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Rick you seem pretty insistent on "winning the lottery" being the only chance for a team to win a title

you have to go back all the way to 97 to Duncan to find a #1 pick who has won a championship


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
Rick you seem pretty insistent on "winning the lottery" being the only chance for a team to win a title

you have to go back all the way to 97 to Duncan to find a #1 pick who has won a championship

That will all change in the next 2 years when Derrick Rose starts winning them

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:11 pm 
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Phil McCracken wrote:
Bagels wrote:
Rick you seem pretty insistent on "winning the lottery" being the only chance for a team to win a title

you have to go back all the way to 97 to Duncan to find a #1 pick who has won a championship

That will all change in the next 2 years when Derrick Rose starts winning them


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
Rick you seem pretty insistent on "winning the lottery" being the only chance for a team to win a title

you have to go back all the way to 97 to Duncan to find a #1 pick who has won a championship
Well, I wasn't specifically referring to #1 picks. I understand why it seemed like that. For instance, I view OKC as having won the lottery even though Durant was the second pick.

Wade was not winning the lottery though. That was just a stacked draft.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:13 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
Rick you seem pretty insistent on "winning the lottery" being the only chance for a team to win a title

you have to go back all the way to 97 to Duncan to find a #1 pick who has won a championship

That Glenn Robinson sure helped vault Milwaukee to the top.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:15 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Bagels wrote:
Rick you seem pretty insistent on "winning the lottery" being the only chance for a team to win a title

you have to go back all the way to 97 to Duncan to find a #1 pick who has won a championship
Well, I wasn't specifically referring to #1 picks. I understand why it seemed like that. For instance, I view OKC as having won the lottery even though Durant was the second pick.

Wade was not winning the lottery though. That was just a stacked draft.


Understood....obviously having a lottery pick in general helps...but my point is that you still need to draft well within that. See Marvin Williams ahead of Chris Paul.....


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Bagels wrote:
Rick you seem pretty insistent on "winning the lottery" being the only chance for a team to win a title

you have to go back all the way to 97 to Duncan to find a #1 pick who has won a championship
Well, I wasn't specifically referring to #1 picks. I understand why it seemed like that. For instance, I view OKC as having won the lottery even though Durant was the second pick.

Wade was not winning the lottery though. That was just a stacked draft.

A team that was built by smart drafting and good signing which you say is impossible took Durant to a game 7 in last years playoffs....

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Phil McCracken wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Bagels wrote:
Rick you seem pretty insistent on "winning the lottery" being the only chance for a team to win a title

you have to go back all the way to 97 to Duncan to find a #1 pick who has won a championship
Well, I wasn't specifically referring to #1 picks. I understand why it seemed like that. For instance, I view OKC as having won the lottery even though Durant was the second pick.

Wade was not winning the lottery though. That was just a stacked draft.

A team that was built by smart drafting and good signing which you say is impossible took Durant to a game 7 in last years playoffs....

That team also had their GAY lottery pick on the sidelines with an injury.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Phil McCracken wrote:
A team that was built by smart drafting and good signing which you say is impossible took Durant to a game 7 in last years playoffs....
Are they really better off than the Hawks though? Both teams look like playoff victims to better teams for a long time to me.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:26 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Phil McCracken wrote:
A team that was built by smart drafting and good signing which you say is impossible took Durant to a game 7 in last years playoffs....
Are they really better off than the Hawks though? Both teams look like playoff victims to better teams for a long time to me.

Grizzlies are very young, and if Gay can turn into All-Star, they will be a contender.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:27 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Phil McCracken wrote:
A team that was built by smart drafting and good signing which you say is impossible took Durant to a game 7 in last years playoffs....
Are they really better off than the Hawks though? Both teams look like playoff victims to better teams for a long time to me.

Losing Gasol will hurt them quite a bit and obviously Z Bo can go back off the rails at anytime. But they were one win away from one game away from playing the Mavs in the Western Conference Finals. I think their front court would have given Dirk and Chandler fits. Sounds like parity to me.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:42 pm 
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Rick, after being provided with multiple examples of why you were wrong about teams having to suck for a really long time before getting better, your argument seems to have dissolved into "you need star players to win a title.". Well, yeah.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Lebron choosing Miami over NY, Chi, or LA, and back in the day Grant Hill and T-Mac choosing Orlando over Chicago are other examples contradicting your theory

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:03 pm 
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When the WNBA was going to go on strike because they wanted to form a union he told them he would disband the league.

They agreed the next day to a small bonus system for playoff teams.

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