I guess we can take these one by one Rick style.

This is simply inaccurate. It's revisionist history, and that's being generous. There was nothing routine about the Decision. It actually directly changed the entire way teams are put together, and the current Warriors dynasty is a direct result. There's nothing incoherent about pointing out this substantial change in the direction of the league.


The first part once again ignores the pretty significant difference of a player choosing his teammates, not vice versa. All those examples you mentioned include players being put together involuntarily. Yes, star teams have existed before, but it's not only fair, but important, to point out the difference in a player hand selecting his teammates.


Well, Duncan did win a title without Parker and Ginobli. That's your first problem. Also, I love Manu and Parker, but they are not going down as better players than Wade, Bosh, and Kyrie Irving.

Also, you seem to misunderstand the entire argument. "LBJ can only win with good players around him" is not the argument. In fact, I would describe it as lazy and wrong to represent it that way. The argument is "LeBron didn't win/dominate nearly as much as Jordan did despite also playing with good and great players".


Looks like both sides have plenty of lazy and flat out wrong narratives going for them.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Look 1988 playoffs. Sam Vincent and Dave Corzine in the starting lineup. Bulls make it to the second round. Earlier rosters means pre 1990. 1988 fills the bill. What in the hell was i actually lying about you damn liar?

As i stated you add very little and more often than not your silly ass "gotcha" bullshit invariably makes you look like a bigger fool than first anticipated. Before the personal attack police start down that road again it is about the 5th time he has played the lying angle. Its obvious who the liar happens to be.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... bulls.html

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Who plays 12 years without playing with good players around him?

You're becoming unhinged by this argument my friend. Take a step back.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

He can thank Krause for being a better scorer and defender than LeBron?

You must think very highly of Krause.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

For being a winner. Come on you know that.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

No player wins without good players around them. Good is too vague in this instance. Dwayne Wade was a Franchise player. Chris Bosh was arguably a franchise player.

Scottie Pippen's greatest claim to fame is that he was the quintessential 2nd banana

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Involuntarily being paired with a star vs organizing who you're paired with is a massive distinction without a difference. The result is the same regardless: more firepower and an advantage relative to the rest of the league.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

The difference lie in the development. Wade and Bosh were established when James teamed up with them.

Pippen was an unknown Quantity for the first 3-4 years of his career. This is relative to him being a star. He wasn't that and a number of people were unsure that he'd be that til the Lakers series came along.

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Pippen started 6 games out of 10 games in his rookie year postseason. He put up some big games. Double check those box scores.

You know way less than you think you know. And you get extremely mad and offensive in order to try to steer eyes away from your ignorance. Your shtick has been solved. The NBA is seemingly all you have and you're upset that I'm trouncing you. Settle down. You're not the first and you won't be the last.

Both Pippen and Grant averaged double figure scoring in their first postseason. So they also met your 'scoring requirement', along with their defense and rebounding. Stating Pippen and Grant had nothing to do with the Bulls starting to win in the playoffs is FOOLISH.

...so why am I not surprised it was found in an LTG post.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

That's simply not true. Not only does it ignore the "massive" difference in direction the league has taken, it also ignores age, experience, and wear and tear. Duncan won a title in 2003 when Parker and Manu were not stars. Parker was so shaky the entire off season consisted of rumors of replacing him with Kidd or another upgrade. He then also won when him, Parker, and Manu were past their prime once Kawhi joined them. Conversely, LeBron left aging veterans to join significantly younger stars. This is not a distinction without a difference.

I feel like you don't have a good idea of just how much LeBron has influenced the way the entire league operates. You can't let him off the hook for getting dominated by GS last year without also acknowledging the GS superteam is a direct result of The Decision.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Even if i know less than i think i know it is still more than you who doesn't know shit. I stated that they "won playoff series with Corzine and Sam Vincent in the lineup. I'm certain you'd never heard of Vincent probably Corzine either yet you run in spouting shit as if you are an authority.
The truth is they both did start and i never referenced Pippen or Grant. Your dumbass probably thought Grant was a starter too until the google search did you in
If you notice no one ever asks your opinion on anything and its probably because they know you don't know shit.

People don't even engage you on shit besides the few "message board friends" that you have. You are an extremely insecure little man that needs a message board and a job to validate your miserable existence.

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My post stated that the Bulls won playoff series with Corzine and Sam Vincent in the starting lineup. You did a google search in an efforr to disprove me ( not surprising). When that didn't work you began lying about what it is that i said.

The lies run so deep with you that you have conflated it to now mean postseason. That was never my point. I stated that the Bulls won 50 games with Vincent and Corzine in the starting lineup. Your google search couldn't disprove that so you began lying again about Pippen and Grant being major factors.

They weren't. Both were Rookies and contributed very little.

You are such the guru that people just shrug off your musings. Has anyone even acknowledged you besides me in this thread? As far as "shtick" goes you don't think that others on here haven't figured you out? You don't think that they don't know that you merely nothing more than the sports discussion version of JLN with all of the cut and paste google search sources.

You are running around attempting to catch me up on recalll from 30 years ago and you don't quite see that as a problem with you? Again when you couldn't disprove what i stated you began lying about it. Not the first time i've caught you lying either. I never stated anything about when Jordan won 50 games i merely stated that it was done with Corzine and Vincent in the starting lineup. They also won series with those 2 in the starting lineup. both of those claims were factual and now you are conflating it to mean Pippen and Grant contributing.

Scottie Pippen avg. 20 min per game his rookie season and started none during the regular season. Shit if memory serves correctly he played behind the immortal Brad Sellers one of the biggest jokes in Bulls history. If he were such the "contributor" then why was this the case? You are out your league when you have to actually discuss this stuff quite frankly. I expose you each and every time.

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https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... bulls.html

Series against Cleveland Horace Grant avg 9 points off the bench.

Scottie Pippen backed up Brad Sellers. Brad Sellers another guy that you'd neither heard of or seen play. Its funny how you are talking "ignorance" when its obvious that you didn't see the series. As usual you are google searching and cherry picking information in an effort to seem "knowledgeable". That is the biggest actual joke in all of this. Everyone on here knows this also and. that is why they simply just leave you be. Really sad that you have to resort to such tactics as a way of "getting in the game". Really truly sad.

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Brad Sellers started in front of Pippen that year avg more points played more minutes and
no one believed that he contributed much of anything.


Sure you will be googling him at some point too.

http://www.landofbasketball.com/stats_b ... lls_rs.htm

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At the very least this proves LBJ did more with less than MJ did during a similar time in his career. Had Cleveland constructed a better roster around LBJ during his early Cleveland days then that would accelerated his playoff achievements. Once LBJ played with upgraded talent he kick-started a streak of seven straight finals appearances that looks like it'll become eight this year, despite playing with the worst roster since his early Cleveland days.

Also not surprising that LBJ has a higher win share rate than MJ. And before anyone says "but The Decision!", remember that LBJ's teams out-performed MJ's teams prior to "The Decision" (49.85 wins to 45.85 wins).

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Said I'm lying even while everything that i stated during this particular quote was in fact true. Quite the feat by the rather uninformed, quite ignorant, google searching IMU. This is low rent even by his standards.

Even lied and made it about Grant and Pippen's non descript Rookie seasons in an effort to deflect from the fact that he was simply wrong.

The kicker in all this was Brad Sellers. Who? Brad Sellers. The guy mister search engine had never heard of before last night but long time Bulls fans know quite well. He attempted to spin it as if Pippen was a major contributor during the 50 win season. His 7 points really was the deciding factor in whatever bump that the team made.


Problem with that is Brad Sellers. Who'd have thought that one of the biggest punchlines in Bulls history actually started and avg more points/minutes in that season than Hall of Fame Scottie Pippen? Certainly not google chrome search IMU who'd never thought about that particular season til he had to make up phony arguments for the sake of appearing "informed".

http://www.landofbasketball.com/stats_b ... lls_rs.htm

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This is where the whole win share thing (IMU you reading) holds little relevance. The Eastern Conf was much tougher and the thing i find most ironic about you is that you have no problem railing against the shitty conf until you have to make Pro Lebron arguments.

The Eastern Conf during that era wasn't just Detroit either. Boston was good til about 88 or 89 and Cleveland was actually the team MANY expected to rule the conf. Injuries derailed them or they'd have won a Championship or two IMO. They were loaded. Atlanta was also a Helluva team. All you have do is check out their roster.

Lebron James has benefitted from being able to engineer teams and playing in a shitty conf.

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What Lebron did in going to Miami is significantly different.

It's by far the most advantageous way to win a title. Free agency is essentially a move with no cost assuming the player you sign is better than anyone else you could have gotten. Now, technically the Heat did some sort of convoluted trade with Cleveland to free up cap space or something but that doesn't really matter much as it for whatever reason was even more advantageous for the Heat to do it. So, when you get together with the two other top free agents in the class and you go to the same team you put yourself into a major competitive advantage. It also has the benefit of being an immediate timing of the "peak" of players. You don't have to spend years developing a project like Scottie Pippen, or take chances on a reclamation project like Dennis Rodman, or finding some third tier free agent like Scott Burrell. Now, to be clear, this is their choice to take the easiest possible path to a title in a salary cap league that limits their compensation just like in college basketball it's fair for talent to flock to certain programs to try and win. We just have to keep it in mind when we judge their time there. The Miami Heat, who went 2/4 had a much easier path to a title than either of the Bulls threepeats. They just did.

Vegan did ask an interesting question. What if Bosh, Wade, and Lebron were all drafted by the Heat? Would it be ok? This would have been virtually impossible given that they were picked 1,4, and 5th in the same draft, but even if they did they would have spent years getting to the point they were at the time of the first title with the Heat. They also would have had to give up the cost of getting those other picks. So, that question actually shows just how much of an advantage it was. They got to get 3 great players from the same draft class, for virtually no cost.

Then that team only won 2/4 titles so even if we say it was the same as the Bulls they still didn't do nearly as well as the Bulls did for either three peat.

Now, for the rest of it which there is too much that was posted to get to everything. The common theme now seems to be "I'm not saying it is, but I'm saying it may be" but there isn't really much being put behind that. I get the eye test is great for Lebron. He certainly looks dominant but Jordan didn't look dominant either. Shaq was far more impressive as a player than Jordan was. Lebron is more well rounded but so was Magic, and other players in the past, and now there are probably 10 active players that are more "well rounded" too. I don't remember anyone in the 90s saying "Yeah, Jordan is great, and he won a bunch of titles, but a shooting guard should have more rebounds!".

That also ignores the fact that Lebron has ALREADY played more games than Jordan, even if you include the Wizards years, and played in more finals. A lot of this seems to be that we are projecting Lebron to do stuff to pass him but pretty much anything he does will be more of an effect of just playing longer.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Another thing that is beginning to take shape is the "worse"
(I love quotation marks) narrative. Vegan you have repeatedly made the fallacious argument that Kyrie Irving is nothing more than a "youtube sensation". You mocked and ridiculed him for making All Star teams and in essence stated that his career was owed to Lebron James. Now you are saying that there is a dearth of talent in essence because he is gone. Cleveland is actually deeper this year than they have been

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The Bulls never won a playoff series with Gene Banks. You are wrong. Own it.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Good catch google chrome search. That one I misremembered and I was going to comment but I wanted to see if you'd use the search function one last (not)time. It is obvious you hadn't heard of him either prior to last night. IN order for you to imply that Pippen and Grant were integral parts of the 87-88 team you have to be extremely ignorant. Pippen backed up Brad Sellers that year. Once wrong on that score you pivoted to 'playoff importance". Yeah Pippen was truly remembered for what exactly? I don't even know if he was on the floor for the shot on Ehlo. Brad Sellers was however. You are a joke and all you have done is soak up all of the knowledge of the credible, reputable posters in this particular thread waiting for your chance to strike. Once you completed all of your google search functions and felt comfortable commenting you posted. You're a joke and the need for you to always congratulate yourself is rather odd as well. Nothing worse than a man that feels the need to always be on his own dick.

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No. It does not prove LeBron did more with less. You’re completely ignoring the context of the league and how good the rest of the East was. You really wanna compare that 07 Detroit team to Bird’s Celtics?

I’m not surprised though. I’ve started noticing a trend of LeBron backers ignoring context and making things up.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Before we go nuts with win shares, let's point out that Karl Malone has a higher career win shares than Jordan too. John Stockton is really close too.

The two Jazz series are looking a lot more impressive though!

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I never thought much of the Jazz back in the day but they are a team that looks better with age. I always thought they simply won the battle of attrition more than anything. Stockton and Malone were together for a number of years and had never made any noise. Without looking I remember a lot of first and second round exits in their past. They'd been together for 11 or 12 years before they'd ever made it to an NBA finals. Once all of the other very good teams faded then they made it and I tended to view them differently because of that.

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Vegan can you look at up Jordan’s and LeBron’s WS/48 for their careers and then apologize for telling the thread James was higher?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

i think he meant pre championships

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Also repeating the 3 of them colluded to take less money so that is another advantage they had compared to the rest of the league.

Also to address your other post, I don't think anyone on team Jordan is calling LeBron a bum. Without a doubt he is a unique specimen and fantastically talented. In terms of pure skill and ability he probably has more than Jordan considering his height. Jordan's scoring was unmatched for 10 years with first team all-NBA defense. I can't imagine that combination will surface again.

I don't think its a laughable discussion to have that LeBron could be the GOAT. My position is 2/4 for the heat is what elevated Jordan above that. What fueled Jordan's defense and scoring was his drive. In a room of alphas, he is the alpha. To the point I believe he is a complete psychopath and its a mental illness. But he will do what it takes to beat you.

When Jordan came back from Baseball, he if joined a young Shaq and penny in Orlando, and lost an NBA title. That would be a damnable offense. But I just can't see him losing. Now we are crediting Krause for titles. I don't care who you put on his team. They practiced against Jordan and he would not allow them to be inferior (see Jordan punched Will Perdue, Steve Kerr). That is why Jordan was the best.

The team that beat Cleveland had Sam Vincent, Dave Corzine, and Brad Sellers in its starting lineup. The Bulls were outmanned at every position except the 2 and Ron Harper at that time was one of the guys that gave Jordan fits. He rarely laid down for Jordan.

Cleveland was supposed to be the next great thing back then and Jordan beat them.

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If this year's Boston team was at full strength and Cleveland was able to beat them then I'd give Lebron all the props in the world. For the first time in the East he'd have played against a team that was simply better than the one he played for. They would represent the best team he'd have faced and that includes the Derrick Rose Bulls.

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I've been sitting in front of the TV for Bulls games since the 1986-1987 season, though that one is admittedly hard for me to remember. I grew up in the biggest Bulls fan household you could possibly imagine. Step back, boy.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.