How are you going to parse the positions? Is Kobe a "small forward" or a "shooting guard"? Robertson did things shooting guards do. Just like Steph Curry. You can call him a point guard if you're trying to get hiim out of the way to make a case for Wade. But if you have to do that, you're pretty much acknowledging that Wade may not be as great as you're insisting.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

Do me a favor. Let me know what it says under Position

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Who is declaring that position? James Naismith?

He played in a backcourt with Guy Rodgers in that late sixties. Which one was the "point guard"? Maybe shakes knows.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

Oscar is listed as a PG everywhere. He's always talked about with PGs, never with SGs. This is a bizarre angle.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

forget positions for a minute. Where do you have Wade on your all time list for all players? I imagine since you said he wasn't a top 20 2G of all time you have him outside your top 100.


Now go find a list anywhere that has Wade outside the top 30. Good luck.

_________________

Early on Oscar was every bit a PG like Clyde Frazier was. No one considered him a SG until Milwaukee, and even then he still was more point than shooting.

I don't think that Wade even belonged in the NBA 50 team (if he was). Great player, special for 5-6 seasons, but no one I'd have paid to watch.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Disagree on not paying to watch, like AI. A joy to watch. But you're right about the handful of seasons. Kid was absolute dynamite for those seasons.

He's really not though. In the era he played point guards didn't score the way he did. You can ask Walt if you don't believe me. You can call him whatever you want, but the way he played is a lot closer to Wade or Kobe than it is to Magic or Isiah.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

He's a top 100 player. Probably not top 50. I don't care about the Internet lists you're citing. I can find all kinds of weird listicles that say goofy shit.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

Yeah, it's not factual at all. There's no statistical support. In fact, the numbers go the other way. The numbers clearly evidence a positive correlation between Shaq's effectiveness and the Heats' effectiveness. As Shaq went, the Heat went:

2003: 42-40 in Wade's rookie year
2004: 59-23 in Shaq's first year (Shaq 3rd overall PER, Wade 10th)
2005: 52-30, win NBA finals (Shaq 9th PER, Wade 4th)
2006: 44-38 Wade 1st PER, Shaq unranked
2007: 15-67 Wade 16th PER, Shaq off the team
2008: 43-39 Wade 2 PER, Shaq off the team
2009: 47-35 Wade 2 PER

So even as Wade ascends the team fails to follow. However, with an effective Shaq, they ascend. Shaq was the alpha.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Well, someone has to walk the ball up. The NBA has never been known for the kind of ball pressure that you see certain college teams apply. So ballhandling, which is the signature of a real point guard, isn't as critical in the NBA.

You could argue that Scottie Pippen was a point guard. He certainly could not perform that role against a team that was pressing.

I think Frazier is a fair comparison for Robertson with regard to playing style. I wouldn't really call either one a "point guard." But I guess if one guard has to be called that, it would have been them. Just like Curry.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

Also, once Shaq left, a Wade-led team never won more than 47 games and never made it past the first round. Without Shaq and LBJ Wade may have been thought of like we think of Melo or McGrady.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Now you are just arguing for positionless basketball. That's fine, but not really pertinent to this debate. If we are going to rank players by position, it's inarguable that Oscar is a PG.

Jokic doesn't play like a traditional center. He plays like a point forward. He's still a Center by any reasonable definition of the position. Same with Oscar.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You just listed why Wade > Shaq when they were teammates, using statistical support

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

You're missing the correlation - the team fails to perform even when Wade performs. The team only performed when Shaq was Shaq. When Shaq left and Wade as at his absolute peak they achieved nothing.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Not really. Although I would say that positions are a lot more fluid now than they were in the time of Robertson.

It is certainly arguable that Robertson was a shooting guard. How do you define what each position does? Do you think Robertson was a pass first guy?

Regardless, Robertson is just one of many guys who is better than Dwyane Wade.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

Correct. Wade has rings the way Horry has rings. He was on the team.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

Didn't Wade get the Finals MVP?

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Riley in 2006

Wade is "the best player in the world".

Again, a handful of years of remarkable play, then his body started failing him. It's really the only legit reason you can make an argument that he isn't top ten.

I'm not sure. Which one? With LeBron?

Anyway, obviously I'm exaggerating with the Horry comp, but if we're doing that thing NBA fans like to do where they assign a ring to one player, then Wade has no rings. The first one was Shaq's, the second two were LeBron's.

_________________
The Court will accord substantial deference to the government's immigration policies, particularly those that implicate matters of national security.

Oh, so a team got worse when one of the 15 best players of all time declined and then left? Brilliant work detective. It's not making the argument you think it's making though.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

He did. It wasn't a close vote.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'm pretty sure that it was the one with Shaq (who never missed a chance to call it Wade's team and city to this day)

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

This is just semantics. Back then it wasn't even called point guard. It was just the guard that ran the point. Hence the origin of the term. When you bring up the ball, you initiate the offense, when you are looked to on the outlet for the fast break, you ARE the PG.

Why did they get worse if according to you they employed the "3rd greatest SG of all time"? Yes it is making my point, and it's not diminishing Wade the way you think it is. Shaq powered that finals team; Wade was Robin. No shame in that. But it's also why the sentence that led this whole thing off - Miller accomplished more than Wade when both were indisputable alphas of their teams - is true.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Find one that says Wade isn't a top 5 shooting guard of all time.

_________________

Let me know when Horry averaged 35 ppg and won Finals MVP and I will agree this is a good analogy.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

How did Miami do when part-time consultant/employee/contractor Shaq left and CEO Wade took command?

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Perfect

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul