2010: 34-48
2011: 7-59
2012: 21-61
2013: 43-39
2014: 33-39
2015: 48-34
2016: 36-46
2017: 36-46

Playoffs: 2 appearances in 8 years
Coaches: 3
Top ten draft picks: 5
Franchise players: 0
Valuation: 28th in the league (https://www.forbes.com/teams/charlotte-hornets/)

Looks like he sucks.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

You forget Brooklyn, Phoenix, Atlanta and Orlando.

Or Cleveland again once LeBron leaves

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Yes.

Lebron will most likely be more successful post-playing career.

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At this rate, Lebron might be playing until he's 45.

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Things I can accept....

MJ is a bad person.
Bad GM.
Bad card player.
Bad coach.
Bad golfer.
Bad husband.
Bad father.
Bad human being.
Bad teammate.
For all the things that warped his mind, his drive, his singular focus in beating you at some mundane task.

But if there is a game of basketball for the fate of the world, I want MJ on my team first and foremost. He doesn’t give a fuck about your feelings or getting you touched. He wants to win, and that is the only thing he wants. He will find a way to beat you.

It’s easy to say I’m warping him into some god complex. But his drive won’t allow you to be a fuck up and stay on his team. He would fight you, humiliate you, challenge you until you improved, or you found an easier place to play. JR Smith would not be on an MJ team.

Well said, Turd.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I have no issue with you guys thinking Jordan is the best ever (and I probably agree)... my only issue is people acting like that's the "right" answer. People on the Jordan side will say shit like "it's not even debatable." That's ridiculous. It is very debatable, especially when discussing players across different eras. There is no other sport where people are this dogmatic about the best player ever.

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Brady, Gretzky, Jordan, Babe Ruth.

Aren't all those guys pretty much unanimous GOAT?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

No. And hockey isn't a sport.

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The only one that seems questionable is Brady. Who else is in the running in hockey or baseball?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Sure there are.

Baseball is probably the worst for arguing across eras.

I will concede MANY of us are like the '72 Dolphins in our defense of Jordan and his place atop the basketball mountain.

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Mario Lemieux, Bobby Orr, and Gordie Howe get best-ever nods for hockey but I don't think there's a persuasive argument for anyone other than Gretzky.

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Damn. Leash just Krazy Ivan'd Brick!

Hockey is the best case, and I hadn't considered it. Gretzky obliterates all the records. Still, I doubt hockey fans start pulling their pants down and stroking themselves to Gretzky highlights if someone mentions Howe.

In baseball, Ruth is the favorite, but it's not even close to a consensus. Many say Bonds or Mays...

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=104923

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Barry Bonds.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Well, part of the problem is that people on the other side of this debate are taking similar stances for Lebron. For example, after jumping in my car to head home on Friday I flipped on the radio and the SCORE was on (as I typically listen to M&H during my morning commute) -Parkins and Mac were discussing the MJ Vs James topic and were snickering about people thinking MJ was better with shit like 'I mean, it's not like there isn't proof that Lebron hasn't already surpassed him..' '50 years from now people are going to look back on this debate and wonder why there was even a debate'. They even went on about how the real reasons people won't put LBJ over Jordan are as follows -the 'decision', James beats your team every year, therefore you don't like him and that's why you think Jordan is better, and 'Six rings'. Never mind all the other legit reasons one could think MJ is better like.. winning the scoring title and defensive player of the year in the same season, all the scoring titles, 9 time All Defensive 1st team.. and so on.


It's incredibly stupid. At least people arguing for MJ are taking the decades long unanimously agreed upon GOAT side of the debate. That's not something that should be discarded lightly. Especially for a player in James that had to go seek out another alpha to play with to win titles coming out of the weakest conference in the NBA.. when MJ gutted it out after getting cut down by the Pistons in the toughest conference in the NBA, then went on to cut down that same Pistons team (ending their chance at a dynasty), and to dominate that same top conference leading his team as the unquestioned Alpha. People spend so much time moving goal posts and practicing mental gymnastics to keep James in the debate imo.


Who cares if James can score 50 in a losing effort in a finals game. I've seen Jordan score 63 in a losing playoff effort against one of the greatest teams of all time. The debate is becoming dumb at this point, if Lebron was really greater than Jordan there wouldn't even be a debate -just like there really wasn't a debate when Jordan was acknowledged as the GOAT. The fact of the matter is that the debate moves ratings needles for media outlets and gives them something to discuss. They did this with Kobe Vs Jordan when Kobe was in his prime and now it's James. That's all I really see at this point.

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If the rule you followed lead you to this, of what use was the rule?

Jordan didn't win until he got help. Just like James.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Not just like James.

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...and James went 2/4 with that help.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I think there are good arguments for all three of the guys you mentioned. Bobby Orr radically changed the way the game was played. You can't say that about Gretzky. And obviously the era had an effect on the points Gretzky scored as compared to Howe. I would compare it to quarterbacks. The worst guy in the current NFL isn't better than Bart Starr, but his numbers would suggest he is.

Anyway, back to Jordan, it's not a conversation that one can have reasonably with Chicagoans. They take Jordan being the "greatest" as an article of faith. When I was out in Boston last weekend I had a discussion with my friend's 18 year old son. The kid is a huge basketball fan who really knows the history of the league. I would compare him to FavreFan. He's a big Celtics fan. But he isn't going to tell you Russell or Bird are the "best ever". And when I asked him about LeBron, he said he's hands down the greatest player ever to step on a court. I brought up Jordan and played devil's advocate. But his basketball arguments for LeBron were really better than mine for Jordan. It came down to me repeating that Jordan never lost in a finals.

Anyway, I'm not making any argument at all about who is the "greatest". I'm on record here as stating that if there is such a thing that it's undoubtedly one of the centers. And if we're talking non-centers, I'm probably going to make a case for Magic. My point is simply that if you travel around the country, the idea that Jordan is the greatest of all-time isn't some indisputable truth the way it is in Chicago where Les Grobstein will spend an entire show insisting that some performance by Jordan that he witnessed 20 years ago was better than what was obviously an incredible game by LeBron.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

He did indeed. But my point is he won when surrounded by better players...just like Jordan did. If LBJ wins this year then that would be a more impressive victory than any of Jordan's.



Doesn't matter to me, TP. We went back and forth on this in the Jordan vs LBJ thread. At the end of the day they both didn't win until the rosters improved. How the roster improved has little to no relevance to me. That some of you would have no problem if James and Wade were drafted together as opposed to joining each other via free agency is absurd to me. If they were drafted together then your criticism (he only won with another star by his side) should still stand, but you'd drop it. Doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway I created this thread to demonstrate how terrible Jordan has been at constructing and steering an NBA team. I didn't even get into his Washington years, which were a disaster. I mean his most notable player acquisition during those years was signing himself - a 40 year old ball-dominating shooting guard who took minutes and shots away from younger players on the roster. The Pistons of all teams probably loved MJ as GM the most since he traded them Richard Hamilton for a washed-up Stackhouse.

His post-playing years association with the NBA has been absolutely terrible. He's done nothing but further ruin the competitive balance in the league by putting out crap team after crap team over ten years of combined work. He basically shouldn't be around basketball at this rate.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I know vegan.

I like needling the Lebron guys with that.

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You didn't try hard enough.

You didn't talk about Jordan doing everything he did while playing in an era where defense mattered.

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The Chicago part is true - guys have created a mythology around him that doesn't lend itself to an objective discussion.

LBJ is better than Magic though.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I agree. It's just something to use to bash the modern player.

What's funny is that it's really no different than some 90 year old guy arguing that Cousy was better than Chris Paul, but the people making the Jordan over LeBron argument see that as ridiculous while thinking their own argument is just great.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Wrong.

Jordan hater.

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Yeah. No one outside of Chicago thinks Jordan is GOAT.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You're surprised an 18 year old thinks Lebron is the best ever? And you give his opinion weight despite not being alive to see Jordan play??

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Somebody brought up JR smith wouldn't be on a Jordan team. Jordan punched Steve Kerr at practice. In the face. Steve Kerr, for chrissake. JR smith could be on a Jordan team. JR smith, on a Jordan team, would know it's tied. These are the type of things that happen to LeBron. They don't happen to Jordan. Why? Because there is only 1 GOAT.