It seems like I'm not the only one here who liked to waste time debating and discussing the NBA and the last few decades and arguments about players and whatnot so I figured this would be a decent thread to get some discussion. Kid, SomeGuy, and JORR I'm looking at you in particular. Here's a few useless things I've seen discussed in the last few weeks.

- I think I changed my mind and am seeing it more of Bagels and Kid's way on that '94 Warriors team when Tim got hurt. I guess I'm always pessimistic when it comes to Nellie because I never liked his Dallas teams, but I definitely think they could have been a contender. It's too bad things ended that way.

- Penny pre-injury or Wade? I took Penny. I think both are all time great talents but Penny had the higher ceiling. Or maybe I'm wrong and romanticizing Penny's potential because he was one of my first favorite athletes.

- Grant Hill pre injury or Pippen? Maybe me and Kid can talk this one out. I think it might be Grant. Again, I might be remembering Hill too fondly.

- Who would you take as a rookie to build your team around - Duncan, LeBron, or Shaq? I might be the only one who takes Duncan, hopefully not. For purposes of discussion we'll assume LeBron and Shaq don't leave your hypothetical team.

For fun name an All-Bust Starting 5. Big guys are by far the easiest. Sebastian Telfair, Ben Gordon(mainly because I don't like him), Adam Morrison, Darko, the Kandi Man. Head Coach: Rick Pitino.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Good stuff here. Real good stuff. I'm about to eat dinner and think about some of this.

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Kid Cairo's Boers & Bernstein YouTube Channel

Kid Cairo: 2013 March Madness Tournament Winner!

"Cowabunga? Cowa fucking piece of dog shit! This game is diarrhea coming out of my dick!"

Kent Benson. #1 '77 (Bucks) [Guys drafted later*: Walter Davis, Bernard King, Jack Sikma]
Chris Washburn #3 '86 (Warrior) [Guys drafted later*: Chuck Person, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman]
Sam Bowie #2 '84 (JailBlazer) [Guys drafted later*: Michael Jordan, John Stockton]
Todd Fuller #11 '96 ('Warrior) [Guys drafted later*: Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal, Steve Nash]
Darko Milicic #2 '03 (Piston) [Guys drafted later*: Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, Dwyan Wade, Josh Howard]

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

A friend of mine who's a rare nba die-hard said an interesting comment earlier this week when we were talking about the league that fits here that could spur some discussion - Ii LeBron finishes his career ringless he would have a career I'd never thought I'd see - a career more disappointing than Chris Webber's. Seemed kind of harsh to say about a HOFer but disappointment definitely has to be one of the words you think of when you hear his name. Obviously that's not the same as bust. I was trying to think of who else would be in the discussion, trying to factor out injuries. Steve Francis and Gilbert Arenas come to mind. It's kind of a hard category to quantify I guess.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

anthony peeler was the real game changer of the timberwolves in the early 2000's.

C-LaRue Martin
PF-Jonathan Bender
SF-Adam Morrison
SG-Dennis Hopson
PG-Jay Williams

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Kid i know it don't take that long to eat dinner. I'm drinking and wanna argue about the nba. Where you at?

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

-Don't know what the question is. Always liked Run TMC
-Penny pre-injury
-Pippen
-Starting a team now, I'd take Shaq. The lack of quality centers in the league is the deciding factor.

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I fell asleep. Give me a minute...

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Kid Cairo's Boers & Bernstein YouTube Channel

Kid Cairo: 2013 March Madness Tournament Winner!

"Cowabunga? Cowa fucking piece of dog shit! This game is diarrhea coming out of my dick!"

I think it is a toss up, you cannot go wrong with either guy. Penny was a tremendous talent that gets over looked at times because his career was such a mess. Penny may have had a tad more talent than Wade, but I think Wade has more of a killer instinct than Penny ever had. Probably if forced to choose I would go with Wade.



No fucking way is Hill better than Pippen. Hill was probably a little more talented as a scorer, but Pippen is far and away better at every other aspect of the game.



Damn that is a hard one. But I guess I would go Shaq. When he was at the top of his game no one could hang with him.



Jay Williams
Adam Morrison
Ed O'Bannon
Pervis Ellison
Sam Bowie

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I'm gonna try to make a case for Hill when I'm sober tomorrow. He was probably my favorite non-Bull basketball player when he came in the league. But before we disuse this rfdc we need to at least agree on the very obvious fact that Pippen was not a better passer or rebounder. Again, we're talking pre-injury Hill.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Whoa, cowboy!

We'll get into this tomorrow, but I can't concede that notion. And Hill was my 3rd favorite player behind Scottie and Penny.

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Kid Cairo's Boers & Bernstein YouTube Channel

Kid Cairo: 2013 March Madness Tournament Winner!

"Cowabunga? Cowa fucking piece of dog shit! This game is diarrhea coming out of my dick!"

I may have worded that incorrectly or something. For clarification I'm not positive Scottie or Grant were better at either attribute. It's pretty close I think. I know for a fact it's much closer than Ralph seems to think.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yeah you better try again on this one sober, because I do not think that Hill was a better passer or rebounder than Pippen.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I'm trying to be reasonable. I don't think you are. I guess we can start here. The rebounding thing is tough IMO. But the passing comparison is not. Pippen was definitely one of the best passing forwards of the decade. Hill was THE best, bar none. Speaking of sobering up, as we move on why don't you admit it was flat ridiculous in your original post to say Pippen was clearly better at everything except scoring. If you can't at least acknowledge they are pretty comparable then I'm afraid you're too biased to be honest.

How's breakfast?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

They are comparable, but IMO Pippen was better at every area on the floor other than scoring. What do you base the fact that Hill was THE best passing forward of the decade? And even if you give Hill the nod over Pippen on passing, the whole picture still shows that Pippen is better which is the big picture in the discussion, right?

Had some coffee for breakfast. It wasn't bad. Thanks for asking. How was yours?

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

that doesn't sound very healthy, RF. breakfast is the most important meal of the day!!

True.

But Pippen still had a career PPG of close to 17 and was averaging around 6-7 rebounds per game for much of his early career.

I mean, fuck! He was killing 20 ppg for about 5 years in the middle especially when Jordan was "retired".

Pip got it done, he got it done with the Bulls, Portland and all of that.

wade> penny and it is not even close...penny had the best center in the game and maybe all time, and penny had no jumper....hardaway and payton>penny too..and i'm sure a few other p.g.'s in his era.

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It would be hard to make a convincing case that at their apex Hill was better. I do think it's really close though and worth debate, which is a reason I posed the question. If I had to take one I would take Pippen because it's a safer pick. He had a full HoF career and we aren't using potential as an argument factor. With Hill we are, but I do think Hill had a higher ceiling. But I was almost shocked to see your original dismissal of the comparison.

By raw assist or a/t ratio numbers Hill was clearly the best passing forward of the 90's. I'm pretty sure he led all forwards in assists and was top 2 or 3 in a/t for four seasons in a row before he got hurt. Add in to that the always dubious eye test. Didn't he seem like almost a perfectly constructed offensive player? He was an efficient passer, but was also one of the most aesthetically pleasing passers. He rarely made bad decisions with the ball after his rookie season and there wasn't any type of pass he was great at. I think we all recognize how great of a passer and point forward Pippen was, but I just don't think you could really ask for more out of a forward when it comes to the area of passing ability, IQ, decision-making, etc than what Hill had. And here's why I think it's hard to argue Pip in this one area - Grant Hill was definitely, demonstrably still improving every season. No matter what we say, nobody ever knows what his ceiling was.

The rebounding thing is tough and I'd actually have to look at numbers. Pippen was definitely a stronger, more physical player. But that makes Grant's elite rebounding numbers that much more impressive IMO. Again, I'm not sure how you can strongly say one was better than the other. I think we can both agree they were both about as good as you could ever want at rebounding from the 3 spot.

I think if you had to pick then the disparity in defense is ultimately just too great to overlook or for Grant to overcome. Hill had improved to a level probably above respectability defensively (probably similar to where Durant is now) when he got hurt, but Pippen was one of the 4-5 best individual defenders ever probably. The pro-Grant point would be to say he never got a chance to fully develop on that end but it's safe to say Pippen was taking the check mark for this column no matter what. Hill was obviously a better shooter/scorer, but not by nearly as wide a margin.

Basically I think you're sleepin on Grant a bit. But that's the thing with players with his unfortunate career arc. We'll never actually know, which also makes it a perfect fit in this thread.

I can't really get beyond juice and coffee right now. The bacon is just sitting there needing to be cooked too. Probably gonna have to wake the girlfriend up here in a minute and let her know.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

.......

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Man do you even remember seeing Anfernee play? I'm not even trying to be unpleasant this morning but it's hard for me to take the above statement very seriously.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

yeah..he had a nice 3 year run with the most dominant center in history..rules were changed to slow shaq down..

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Roughly translated...

"Eh..not really. According to Wikipedia or basketball-reference he was only good for a few years though. Some more research will show he had Shaq on his team for those seasons. Put that all together and it looks clear to me that he was overrated. I will now change the topic and mention something irrelevant about Shaq. Sup?"

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

we are probably around the same age and watched penny the same amount...not sure why you and kid cairo think he was an all time great...he had 3 very good seasons ...so what?

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I was moreso talking about what you were saying then your probable age. I'm guessing you're actually older than I am. But all shit talking aside I've never heard someone that knows, loves, and watches the NBA say that about Penny. He couldn't shoot at all? Tim Hardaway was better? And either you don't know why he only had 3 great seasons(which would be so damn hilarious), or you do and feel like bringing it up anyway even though it's not too relevant. Similar to the Hill/Pippen debate, we have to project a little with Penny. But one thing is undeniable - Penny was easily off to a HoF start before injuries did him in.

I don't know what Kid thinks since he's too damn lazy to jump in but I said he was an all time great talent. That's a big difference from all time great period.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

i do know what cairo thinks..this is not the first time penny hardaway was brought up...he got hurt, it happens...someone could say the same thing about kerry wood "what if" ..i don't think like that..he was in the league and doing very good..he got hurt..he played for another 8 years or so and was o.k....you are dismissing that playing 5 on 5 with one of the top ten players all time will make you appear better...grant hill had a much better career and jumper than penny....tim hardaway was great and so was the glove for many years..penny was for a minute...big difference...neither got to play with shaq and would have looked even better if they could have.

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There's two enormous errors in what you just said.

1.) please stop calling '95 Shaq one of the best players ever. The '95 version doesn't even make the discussion of best Centers ever. You are taking 2000 Shaq and putting him with Penny. Stop doing that.

2.) your passive dismissal of "he had 3 great years, got hurt, then was ok for like 8 seasons" is exactly the type of comment that makes me want to be a smartass and ask again how much you watch/know about the NBA. And Im not just saying that to be arrogant or a dick. Theres countless example of knee/foot injuries completely derailing a career. Bill Walton looked like literally the perfect basketball player ever drawn up from scratch in 1977. It looked like he was easily gonna take Portland on a dynastic, several-title run. Five years later he's trying to hold on as a 6th man. Antonio McDyess went from All Star right below possible superstar level to a good journeyman role player when injuries took away his elevation in his mid-20's.

When guys have superstar starts to their career(can we agree 3rd in MVP voting and NBA 1st team qualifies?), then suffer multiple knee/foot problems, then return noticeabley slower and less agile from those problems while still in their mid-late 20's, I think it's fair to say the injuries did it.

Oh yeah and the Kerry Wood analogy is terrible. Wood was an underachiever while 100% healthy. He also didn't have a 3 year start to his career that made people say he was one of the best of his generation.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1992-93 20 ORL NBA 81 81 37.9 9.0 16.1 .562 0.0 0.0 .000 5.3 8.9 .592 4.2 9.6 13.9 1.9 0.7 3.5 3.8 4.0 23.4
1993-94 21 ORL NBA 81 81 39.8 11.8 19.6 .599 0.0 0.0 .000 5.8 10.5 .554 4.7 8.5 13.2 2.4 0.9 2.9 2.7 3.5 29.3
1994-95 22 ORL NBA 79 79 37.0 11.8 20.2 .583 0.0 0.1 .000 5.8 10.8 .533 4.2 7.3 11.4 2.7 0.9 2.4 2.6 3.3 29.3
1995-96 23 ORL NBA 54 52 36.0 11.0 19.1 .573 0.0 0.0 .500 4.6 9.5 .487 3.4 7.7 11.0 2.9 0.6 2.1 2.9 3.6 26.6
1996-97 24 LAL NBA 51 51 38.1 10.8 19.4 .557 0.0 0.1 .000 4.5 9.4 .484 3.8 8.7 12.5 3.1 0.9 2.9 2.9 3.5 26.2
1997-98 25 LAL NBA 60 57 36.3 11.2 19.1 .584 0.0 0.0 6.0 11.4 .527 3.5 7.9 11.4 2.4 0.7 2.4 2.9 3.2 28.3
1998-99 26 LAL NBA 49 49 34.8 10.4 18.1 .576 0.0 0.0 .000 5.5 10.2 .540 3.8 6.9 10.7 2.3 0.7 1.7 2.5 3.2 26.3
1999-00 27 LAL NBA 79 79 40.0 12.1 21.1 .574 0.0 0.0 .000 5.5 10.4 .524 4.3 9.4 13.6 3.8 0.5 3.0 2.8 3.2 29.7
2000-01 28 LAL NBA 74 74 39.5 11.0 19.2 .572 0.0 0.0 .000 6.7 13.1 .513 3.9 8.8 12.7 3.7 0.6 2.8 2.9 3.5 28.7
2001-02 29 LAL NBA 67 66 36.1 10.6 18.3 .579 0.0 0.0 .000 5.9 10.7 .555 3.5 7.2 10.7 3.0 0.6 2.0 2.6 3.0 27.2
2002-03 30 LAL NBA 67 66 37.8 10.4 18.1 .574 0.0 0.0 6.7 10.8 .622 3.9 7.2 11.1 3.1 0.6 2.4 2.9 3.4 27.5
2003-04 31 LAL NBA 67 67 36.8 8.3 14.1 .584 0.0 0.0 4.9 10.1 .490 3.7 7.8 11.5 2.9 0.5 2.5 2.9 3.4 21.5
2004-05 32 MIA NBA 73 73 34.1 9.0 15.0 .601 0.0 0.0 4.8 10.5 .461 3.5 6.9 10.4 2.7 0.5 2.3 2.8 3.6 22.9
2005-06 33 MIA NBA 59 58 30.6 8.1 13.6 .600 0.0 0.0 3.7 8.0 .469 2.9 6.3 9.2 1.9 0.4 1.8 2.8 3.9 20.0
2006-07 34 MIA NBA 40 39 28.4 7.1 12.0 .591 0.0 0.0 3.1 7.4 .422 2.4 5.0 7.4 2.0 0.2 1.4 2.4 3.5 17.3
2007-08 35 TOT NBA 61 61 28.7 5.4 9.1 .593 0.0 0.0 2.8 5.5 .503 2.7 6.4 9.1 1.5 0.5 1.4 3.0 3.7 13.6
2007-08 35 MIA NBA 33 33 28.6 5.8 10.0 .581 0.0 0.0 2.7 5.4 .494 3.0 4.8 7.8 1.4 0.6 1.6 3.0 4.1 14.2
2007-08 35 PHO NBA 28 28 28.7 5.0 8.2 .611 0.0 0.0 2.9 5.7 .513 2.4 8.2 10.6 1.7 0.5 1.2 3.0 3.4 12.9
2008-09 36 PHO NBA 75 75 30.0 6.8 11.2 .609 0.0 0.0 .000 4.1 6.9 .595 2.5 5.9 8.4 1.7 0.7 1.4 2.2 3.4 17.8
2009-10 37 CLE NBA 53 53 23.4 4.9 8.7 .566 0.0 0.0 .000 2.1 4.3 .496 1.8 4.9 6.7 1.5 0.3 1.2 2.0 3.2 12.0
2010-11 38 BOS NBA 37 36 20.3 3.6 5.4 .667 0.0 0.0 2.0 3.5 .557 1.3 3.5 4.8 0.7 0.4 1.1 1.5 3.2 9.2
Career NBA 1207 1197 34.7 9.4 16.1 .582 0.0 0.0 .045 4.9 9.3 .527 3.5 7.4 10.9 2.5 0.6 2.3 2.7 3.4 23.7

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shaq as a BEAST from day 1...did you watch him in orlando?

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