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Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
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Author:  leashyourkids [ Thu May 16, 2013 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketbal ... 3067.story


Phil Jackson never liked to compare Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan. Believe me, I tried everything.


Sometimes I'd ask him after random Lakers practices or before games against Charlotte, the team Jordan owned. Or after games in Chicago, where nostalgia hopefully would add to the mix.

There would be a little nugget here, a tiny nibble there, but nothing that mattered.

It's coming out now, though, in Jackson's 339-page memoir co-written with Hugh Delehanty and available Tuesday: "Eleven Rings: The Soul of Success."

MJ vs. Kobe? Here it is from the man who would know best.

"Michael was more charismatic and gregarious than Kobe. He loved hanging out with his teammates and security guards, playing cards, smoking cigars, and joking around," Jackson said in the book, which was obtained in advance by The Times.

"Kobe is different. He was reserved as a teenager, in part because he was younger than the other players and hadn't developed strong social skills in college. When Kobe first joined the Lakers, he avoided fraternizing with his teammates. But his inclination to keep to himself shifted as he grew older. Increasingly, Kobe put more energy into getting to know the other players, especially when the team was on the road."

While Jackson coached, he often jabbed at Bryant's seemingly annual appearance on the NBA's All-Defensive team. Now we know why.

"No question, Michael was a tougher, more intimidating defender. He could break through virtually any screen and shut down almost any player with his intense, laser-focused style of defense," said Jackson, who coached Jordan to six championships and Bryant to five.

"Kobe has learned a lot from studying Michael's tricks, and we often used him as our secret weapon on defense when we needed to turn the direction of a game. In general, Kobe tends to rely more heavily on his flexibility and craftiness, but he takes a lot of gambles on defense and sometimes pays the price."

What about the part of the game where Bryant captivated fans by scoring 81 points against Toronto and 62 in three quarters against Dallas?

Jackson noted the "pronounced" difference in their accuracy, Jordan shooting almost 50% — an "extraordinary figure" — while Bryant had been at 45%.

"Michael was more likely to break through his attackers with power and strength, while Kobe often tries to finesse his way through mass pileups," Jackson wrote. "Michael was stronger, with bigger shoulders and a sturdier frame. He also had large hands that allowed him to control the ball better and make subtle fakes.

"Jordan was also more naturally inclined to let the game come to him and not overplay his hand, whereas Kobe tends to force the action, especially when the game isn't going his way. When his shot is off, Kobe will pound away relentlessly until his luck turns. Michael, on the other hand, would shift his attention to defense or passing or setting screens to help the team win the game."

Among other disclosures in "Eleven Rings:"

• Jackson signed off on Lakers' drafting Andrew Bynum in 2005 but did not like his running gait, which he thought could lead to knee problems.

•Jackson became more interested in Zen after meeting a practicing construction worker who helped build his lakeside Montana home in the late 1970s.

• Here's how Jackson handled Jordan's unexpected appearance at his Bulls office in March 1995 after more than 1½ years away from the game to pursue baseball. "Well," Jackson said dryly after Jordan asked to return to the team, "I think we've got a uniform here that might fit you."

Much of the book, though, is about Bryant. How could it not be? Bryant has often been a polarizing figure in his 17-year career.

Jackson even talked about how the sexual-assault charges levied against Bryant in 2003 temporarily changed his outlook on the perennial All-Star.
Author:  Colonel Angus [ Thu May 16, 2013 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
That might be a good read. Big Chief Triangle is probably my favorite coach in any sport of all time.
Author:  RFDC [ Thu May 16, 2013 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Sounds like Jackson is laying out the truth. No big surprises, pretty much most objective fans of the NBA would all agree with him.
Author:  Terry's Peeps [ Thu May 16, 2013 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Phil's books are usually a good read.

I expect this one to be more of the same.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Thu May 16, 2013 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Not entirely relevant to the subject, but Kobe's 81 points game should have an asterisk affixed to it in the record books. Anytime you oppose a team that features Jalen Rose as a starter, you're playing 5 on 4 basketball on offense.
Author:  Dallas Winston [ Thu May 16, 2013 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
It'll be on my kindle when it comes out. I've always liked his views on life, hoops, and whatnot.
Author:  leashyourkids [ Thu May 16, 2013 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Lot of peyote-induced thoughts in that book.
Author:  312player [ Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Phil never liked Kobe, he never made any teamates better..forced shaq out of town.kid Cairo will eventually realize this.
Author:  Terry's Peeps [ Tue May 21, 2013 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
312player wrote:
Phil never liked Kobe, he never made any teamates better..forced shaq out of town.kid Cairo will eventually realize this.


Kobe won back to back championships.

With these rosters.

He's made plenty of players better.

Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
3 Trevor Ariza SF 6-8 200 June 30, 1985 4 University of California, Los Angeles
12 Shannon Brown SG 6-4 205 November 29, 1985 2 Michigan State University
24 Kobe Bryant SG 6-6 200 August 23, 1978 12
17 Andrew Bynum C 7-0 285 October 27, 1987 3
5 Jordan Farmar PG 6-2 180 November 30, 1986 2 University of California, Los Angeles
2 Derek Fisher PG 6-1 200 August 9, 1974 12 University of Arkansas at Little Rock
16 Pau Gasol C 7-0 227 July 6, 1980 7
28 Didier Ilunga-Mbenga C 7-0 245 December 30, 1980 4
31 Chris Mihm C 7-0 265 July 16, 1979 7 University of Texas at Austin
6 Adam Morrison SF 6-8 205 July 19, 1984 1 Gonzaga University
7 Lamar Odom PF 6-10 220 November 6, 1979 9 University of Rhode Island
21 Josh Powell PF 6-9 225 January 25, 1983 3 North Carolina State University
10 Vladimir Radmanovic SF 6-10 227 November 19, 1980 7
18 Sasha Vujacic SG 6-7 193 March 8, 1984 4
4 Luke Walton SF 6-8 235 March 28, 1980 5 University of Arizona
9 Sun Yue

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
12 Shannon Brown SG 6-4 205 November 29, 1985 3 Michigan State University
24 Kobe Bryant SG 6-6 200 August 23, 1978 13
17 Andrew Bynum C 7-0 285 October 27, 1987 4
1 Jordan Farmar PG 6-2 180 November 30, 1986 3 University of California, Los Angeles
2 Derek Fisher PG 6-1 200 August 9, 1974 13 University of Arkansas at Little Rock
16 Pau Gasol C 7-0 227 July 6, 1980 8
28 Didier Ilunga-Mbenga C 7-0 245 December 30, 1980 5
6 Adam Morrison SF 6-8 205 July 19, 1984 2 Gonzaga University
7 Lamar Odom PF 6-10 220 November 6, 1979 10 University of Rhode Island
21 Josh Powell PF 6-9 225 January 25, 1983 4 North Carolina State University
18 Sasha Vujacic SG 6-7 193 March 8, 1984 5
4 Luke Walton SF 6-8 235 March 28, 1980 6 University of Arizona
37 Metta World Peace SF 6-6 244 November 13, 1979 10 St. John's University
Author:  312player [ Tue May 21, 2013 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Those rosters ain't bad, Kobe couldn't get out of the first round after he ran shaq out. Gasol carried that team in the last run..Kobe was bad. They don't win shit if Perkins don't go down.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Tue May 21, 2013 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
312player wrote:
Those rosters ain't bad, Kobe couldn't get out of the first round after he ran shaq out. Gasol carried that team in the last run..Kobe was bad. They don't win shit if Perkins don't go down.


I agree. And Odom was actually a better than average player during those two championships, as he was for most of his career. Odom-Bynum-Gasol-Bryant was a very good core at the time. Ironically, that core was probably better than the Shaq-Bryant cores for championships 2 and 3 in the early 2000s.
Author:  bigfan [ Tue May 21, 2013 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
veganfan21 wrote:
312player wrote:
Those rosters ain't bad, Kobe couldn't get out of the first round after he ran shaq out. Gasol carried that team in the last run..Kobe was bad. They don't win shit if Perkins don't go down.


I agree. And Odom was actually a better than average player during those two championships, as he was for most of his career. Odom-Bynum-Gasol-Bryant was a very good core at the time. Ironically, that core was probably better than the Shaq-Bryant cores for championships 2 and 3 in the early 2000s.

Odom, played a great Point Forward for Phil. He could dribble up and entry pass to his pair of 7 footers with ease, then either shoot or pass off to Kobe after Double came.

Those might not be great teams in the pantheon of great NBA players, but 2 7 footers that could both play well, plus a 6'10" power Forward playing point. You have some room for eroor.
Author:  Nas [ Tue May 21, 2013 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Are we forgetting that Bynum was always injured and you never knew if Gasol or Odom would show up. Kobe was their only reliable player. Having the player Fisher is guarding averaging 25 a night is hard to overcome too.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Tue May 21, 2013 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Nas wrote:
Are we forgetting that Bynum was always injured and you never knew if Gasol or Odom would show up. Kobe was their only reliable player. Having the player Fisher is guarding averaging 25 a night is hard to overcome too.



I don't know about that, Nas. For the 2008-09 championship, Gasol played 81 games and averaged 19, 9.6 boards, and a block. Odom, off the bench, averaged 11, 8 boards, 3 assists and a block. Bynum was injured most of the year, but did provide around 15 and 8 when he played with some blocks. Bynum played 65 games the next year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html
Author:  SHARK [ Tue May 21, 2013 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Phil Jackson was a guest in the New York "DanCave" this morning on "The Dan Patrick Show" to promote his new book and to talk about a couple of other things. Phil said that he was indeed offered the Lakers' job before Mike D'Antoni got the gig instead and told Dan that he was offered an unspecified role in the Seattle franchise had the NBA greenlighted the Sacramento Kings' move there.
Author:  Nas [ Tue May 21, 2013 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
veganfan21 wrote:
Nas wrote:
Are we forgetting that Bynum was always injured and you never knew if Gasol or Odom would show up. Kobe was their only reliable player. Having the player Fisher is guarding averaging 25 a night is hard to overcome too.



I don't know about that, Nas. For the 2008-09 championship, Gasol played 81 games and averaged 19, 9.6 boards, and a block. Odom, off the bench, averaged 11, 8 boards, 3 assists and a block. Bynum was injured most of the year, but did provide around 15 and 8 when he played with some blocks. Bynum played 65 games the next year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html


You're looking at stats for the entire season. You would be better served looking at game threads in this section. Gasol and Odom would disappear when it mattered most. You never knew what you would get from them in the playoffs. If they played well the Lakers were unbeatable.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue May 21, 2013 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Nas wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Nas wrote:
Are we forgetting that Bynum was always injured and you never knew if Gasol or Odom would show up. Kobe was their only reliable player. Having the player Fisher is guarding averaging 25 a night is hard to overcome too.



I don't know about that, Nas. For the 2008-09 championship, Gasol played 81 games and averaged 19, 9.6 boards, and a block. Odom, off the bench, averaged 11, 8 boards, 3 assists and a block. Bynum was injured most of the year, but did provide around 15 and 8 when he played with some blocks. Bynum played 65 games the next year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html


You're looking at stats for the entire season. You would be better served looking at game threads in this section. Gasol and Odom would disappear when it mattered most. You never knew what you would get from them in the playoffs. If they played well the Lakers were unbeatable.

I think most people realize Pau Gasol was the real Finals MVP in 2010.
Author:  Nas [ Tue May 21, 2013 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
That was his best series but IRRC they don't make it to game 7 without Kobe putting the team on his back in Boston. I am pretty sure you aren't arguing that Gasol was reliable though.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Tue May 21, 2013 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Nas wrote:

You're looking at stats for the entire season. You would be better served looking at game threads in this section. Gasol and Odom would disappear when it mattered most. You never knew what you would get from them in the playoffs. If they played well the Lakers were unbeatable.


My larger argument was that the Lakers had an awesome core of players when they won two championships a few years ago, something I think you'd agree with since you said they were unbeatable if they played well together.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue May 21, 2013 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Nas wrote:
That was his best series but IRRC they don't make it to game 7 without Kobe putting the team on his back in Boston. I am pretty sure you aren't arguing that Gasol was reliable though.

Kobe wasnt always either. No-showed in that 40 point blowout loss in 2008, and tried to shoot them out of the game in Game 7 in 2010 before finally settling down and letting his teammates, mainly Gasol, help him squeak past the Celtics.
Author:  Nas [ Tue May 21, 2013 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Are you really trying to compare the play of Gasol and Kobe? Even your dislike of Kobe can't cloud your judgment like that. Kobe having a bad shooting game is nowhere near equivalent to Gasol playing soft and looking like his doesn't want to be on the court. Even in game 7 Kobe got to the foul line and grabbed 17 rebounds. IIRC it was Artest NOT Gasol who had a really great Game 7.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue May 21, 2013 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Nas wrote:
Are you really trying to compare the play of Gasol and Kobe? Even your dislike of Kobe can't cloud your judgment like that. Kobe having a bad shooting game is nowhere near equivalent to Gasol playing soft and looking like his doesn't want to be on the court. Even in game 7 Kobe got to the foul line and grabbed 17 rebounds. IIRC it was Artest NOT Gasol who had a really great Game 7.

Gasol was soft and scared in 2008. At no point in 2010 did I see him playing soft. He had 19-18 in Game 7, Artest had 20, and Kobe had 23 and 15 rebounds.
Author:  Nas [ Tue May 21, 2013 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Are you really trying to compare the play of Gasol and Kobe? Even your dislike of Kobe can't cloud your judgment like that. Kobe having a bad shooting game is nowhere near equivalent to Gasol playing soft and looking like his doesn't want to be on the court. Even in game 7 Kobe got to the foul line and grabbed 17 rebounds. IIRC it was Artest NOT Gasol who had a really great Game 7.

Gasol was soft and scared in 2008. At no point in 2010 did I see him playing soft. He had 19-18 in Game 7, Artest had 20, and Kobe had 23 and 15 rebounds.


Just looked at the stats. He didn't shoot well but he didn't play soft. Perkins absence may have played a role. Artest had the best game. Big shot after big shot. They don't win without him based on the way Kobe and Gasol shot the ball.
Author:  312player [ Tue May 21, 2013 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
They squeaked by only after Kobe stopped shooting..6-24 sucks, Gasol was the MVP of that series n that game.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue May 21, 2013 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Nas wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Are you really trying to compare the play of Gasol and Kobe? Even your dislike of Kobe can't cloud your judgment like that. Kobe having a bad shooting game is nowhere near equivalent to Gasol playing soft and looking like his doesn't want to be on the court. Even in game 7 Kobe got to the foul line and grabbed 17 rebounds. IIRC it was Artest NOT Gasol who had a really great Game 7.

Gasol was soft and scared in 2008. At no point in 2010 did I see him playing soft. He had 19-18 in Game 7, Artest had 20, and Kobe had 23 and 15 rebounds.


Just looked at the stats. He didn't shoot well but he didn't play soft. Perkins absence may have played a role. Artest had the best game. Big shot after big shot. They don't win without him based on the way Kobe and Gasol shot the ball.

Artest was 7-18. Gasol was 6-16, and Kobe was 6-24. Artest didnt really shoot much better than Gasol. He just had those two big shots in the final minute so he gets remembered as the hero. He didnt have a spectacular game by any means. Really, that entire game, and series, was a war of attrition. I agree with those who say if Perkins was there for Game 7 the Celts would've won.
Author:  Nas [ Tue May 21, 2013 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
I can't recall the other series but I remember being really impressed with Gasol's toughness in the Finals and with the way Bynum gutted it out on 1 leg. No the Lakers don't win if Perkins is there BUT let's not forget Bynum missed that game too. Both teams knew each other too well and they were well coached. That's why you got an ugly series.
Author:  Nas [ Tue May 21, 2013 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
BTW once again Odom did nothing anyone can remember. He was a waste of great talent.
Author:  Nas [ Tue May 21, 2013 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
veganfan21 wrote:
Nas wrote:

You're looking at stats for the entire season. You would be better served looking at game threads in this section. Gasol and Odom would disappear when it mattered most. You never knew what you would get from them in the playoffs. If they played well the Lakers were unbeatable.


My larger argument was that the Lakers had an awesome core of players when they won two championships a few years ago, something I think you'd agree with since you said they were unbeatable if they played well together.


On paper and talent wise it was great. Kobe and Artest were the only ones that had heart though.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Tue May 21, 2013 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Nas wrote:
BTW once again Odom did nothing anyone can remember. He was a waste of great talent.


He had a very good eight year stretch from when he was drafted up until the championships he won with the Lakers. He was generally good for around 15-17 points, 8 boards, 4 assists and a block. Not bad. Like BigFan mentioned, he also could facilitate the offense while playing point forward. He may have been able to accomplish more, but I don't think his talent was wasted.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue May 21, 2013 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phil Jackson on MJ, Kobe
Nas wrote:
I can't recall the other series but I remember being really impressed with Gasol's toughness in the Finals and with the way Bynum gutted it out on 1 leg. No the Lakers don't win if Perkins is there BUT let's not forget Bynum missed that game too. Both teams knew each other too well and they were well coached. That's why you got an ugly series.

Admitting a Doc Rivers team was well coached? That's progress I guess.
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