http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/4/8/55 ... on-pistons

He started off great, obviously, but failed to rebuild after the championship team died off. I have no idea what he tried and is trying to do with the Smith, Charlie V, and Gordon signings. Those seemed bizarre and not well thought out to me. Those are the mistakes that GarPax has generally avoided (Wallace being a major exception), but if Rose is done for good, then Chicago will likely find itself in the same situation Detroit fans are in now: being forced to support a team with no future in a city that no star would care to consider playing for.

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2013 CSFMB ROY

He needs to take the great John Hammond with him.

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I don't really think that's true. Detroit and Chicago are not comparable destinations for star players. There's a reason Love is looking for a major market, Detroit isn't it. Also, GarPax and Thibs, for whatever faults they may have, would not let the team get as bad as the Pistons have been for the past four seasons. And we have a probable 1st team All NBA guy on our team right now besides Rose. I'd call that a star.

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I did credit management for mostly avoiding bad free agent NYK style signings. Noah certainly is a star and I'm glad he's here, but that's the problem: he's here because he was drafted, which seems to be the only way Chicago is able to land difference makers. Sure, Chicago will be "considered" by future FA stars, but that's as far as the courtship seems to go. It doesn't make a difference to me whether youre considered or not - if you're not landing prized FAs, then you've got more in common with Detroit and Milwaukee than you do with LA and NY, city reputation notwithstanding. The Bulls are not the FA destination we thought they were.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

No, they're really about the same. Cold-weather midwestern cities, good basketball fanbases, teams with semi-recent championship traditions. I can't speak for the new Pistons ownership, but it seems like any difference between Chicago and Detroit that favored Chicago was offset by having one of the best owners in Bill Davidson versus one of the worst in Jerry Reinsdorf. "lol detroit sux" doesn't really come into play here; if you don't want to live in the Grosse Pointes and play at a first-class arena, you won't want to live on the North Shore and play at a first-class arena, either.

EDIT: HOLY SHIT, NO ONE TOLD ME HOW FAT JOE DUMARS GOT. Brothers don't go on diets! Bad for the community!

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It's more than just where you live or play. Restaurants & nightlife play a huge roll in attracting many athletes. Detroit can't compete with Chicago in that regard.

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I always think that's overblown. Before 2010, nobody was saying "I want to go play for the Heat!" Tim Duncan didn't ever want to leave SA. The Hill/T-Mac signings in Orlando were a disappointment, but that was 14 years ago. I think Bosh and LeBron and Wade had already made up their minds and there was nothing Chicago could do about it. Amare wanted to go play in NY. Boozer was considered a big name at the time, you don't get a near-max contract unless you are, and he turned down more money from the Nets to come play in Chicago. Ben Wallace was a big name and chose to sign here. Obviously that didn't work out well, but Boozer and Wallace were two of the biggest free agents of their respective summers, and Chicago got both of them. This isn't a place that free agents are probably automatically crossing off the list like Sacramento, Milwaukee, etc. Like you said, GarPax avoids terrible deals usually, and he has the roster where it will be perennially competitive, and are a healthy Rose return or a big name like Love or Melo coming here away from competing for a title. They would be competing for a title right now if Rose was healthy, and you cant blame them for committing to Rose before his knees became glass.

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Well, apparently Chicago can't compete with San Antonio, Dallas, Boston, or Oklahoma City, because who the fuck comes here?

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They aren't the same at all. Detroit has been terrible for years now, overpays for mediocre sub-all star talent, and usually plays in a half-full arena at best. It's just simply inaccurate to say the Pistons and Bulls are comparable free agent destinations.

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"Can't get anyone to come here" versus "can't get anyone to come here" looks pretty comparable to me.

Ilitch's teams have no trouble getting people to come to America's scar tissue, for whatever it's worth.

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I already answered that. Who the fuck goes to San Antonio, Boston, or OK City? Cant even remember the last important free agent signed by any of those teams.

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"Cant get anyone to come here" doesn't apply to Chicago, though.

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Were you the one wearing the Benny the Bull costume at the airport? Come on.

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huh?

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Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.- JD Vance
If you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn’t be pardoned.- JD Vance on the J-6 insurrectionists

Yeah, that didn't really make any sense.

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Outside of SA and Dallas, over the past twenty or years, all championship teams have either been led by a major free agent signing, or have seen a signing play a major role as a right hand man. I'm including stars that demanded or approved a trade to a specific team as a "signing".

Houston (Clyde D)
LAL (Shaq)
Miami(Shaq)
Boston (Allen, KG)
LAL (Gasol)
Miami (Bosh, James)

You may be right about the circumstances of big FAs.not signing here, but the name of the game today is acquiring and keeping stars, and if all the bulls can show is Wallace and Boozer, then they simply can't play.

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Difference making free agents don't sign here and they don't sign in Detroit either, voila. Sorry Eddie Robinson, I thought you'd be better.

I don't know if free agents shun Chicago, but it's usually about the amount of money they can be paid and opportunity to win a championship. If upcoming free agents can't see how beneficial it is to play for Thibs, then screw them. You want guys that will buy into the program because those that do, become much better players.

I am not sure how you compare Chicago and Detroit. Aside from Chicago's public finances becoming like Detroit's (and the weather), they are totally different cities. Chicago is vibrant and globally known. Detroit is a mere shadow of its former self and a recurring joke.

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It sounds like you're including a trade just to help your point. KG and Kobe approved of trades sending them to the Bulls. I promise Allen would have also if a similar package occurred. To say Boston has a better history than Chicago for attracting free agents is simply ignorant. Ever since Russell turned on the city they've had a hell of a hard time getting guys to come there. It's pretty well documented. Also, do you really think Gasol is the type of guy that demanded to go to a big market? That was just a good trade by Kupchak, and had nothing at all to do with the market they play in. If we are going to talk about free agent destinations, you cant include trades. Ill say again, Kobe and KG were willing to come to Chicago. They are on the record about this. You cant just dismiss Wallace and Boozer because they haven't lived up to their contracts. They were big names, as evidenced by their contracts, and one of them left money on the table to come here over NJ. Ironically, you left Detroit(Sheed) off your list that includes trades that led to a title.

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In the NBA world, I agree with Curious - they are the same, or at least they're generally treated that way by dominant nba stars. All that stature and allure doesn't matter. There was simply no better place to sign than Chicago in 2010, and the three biggest catches simply passed (even though this might have all been planned, as FF said)

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Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

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It's really a small sample size if you think about it. Unlike football and baseball with large rosters and more stars, basketball only has a few legit free agents that become available each year. And with the current team having the ability to offer more money and most teams cap constrained, this is far from a "free" market.

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If it was all planned, and it certainly looks like it was, then how in the world can you blame Chicago for that? That makes zero sense.

Also, remember that New York was heavily courting LeBron that same summer. Should we now try to diminish New York and say that no star free agents want to go there because of 2010? Roster, cap room, coaching, management, lack of state income tax, city life, all come into play when a free agent is choosing a city. To just blindly say that free agents don't want to come here because we didn't get LeBron is lazy and ignorant.

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Didn't mean to imply Boston has a better history, just that they were able to acquire talent outside the draft that led directly to a ring.

I am definitely leaving off Wallace and Booz. Wallace was a decrepit 32 year old 6'6 center with about three skills (jumping, hustling, and defense) all of which were declining. Signing someone like that is not exactly making a splash. Didn't expect anything out of Booz other than what he's given us so far. They signed him because he was the only one left. I'll accept your points about Kobe and the rest.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

The Wallace signing turned out poorly. But he was a big name free agent. That really cant be denied. Iirc, he was the biggest name that summer. You cant just dismiss him choosing to come here because it turned out poorly. And Boozer was a multiple all star who turned down a max offer from New Jersey to come here. These guys weren't mid-level guys, as much as you want to portray them that way. They were definitely big names. Boozer just happened to be overshadowed by the other names of that summer. But he's still been a better signing than Amare and probably more productive than Bosh has been.

Like denis said, the whole "Chicago cant get star players" thing is based on an incredibly small sample size. And I would think you would understand the risk of drawing grand conclusions from such a small sample size. We are talking about 2 guys from 14 years ago and 3 guys from 4 years ago. It's not like a franchise-altering free agent is on the market every summer and perpetually spurns Chicago. I think it's clear because of the Kobe/KG reports, our market, our roster, and our coaching/management that players would be willing to come here. Although I suppose this argument will come up again if Melo resigns with NY and Love signs with LA in the next two summers.

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That's revisionist history. Wallace was a big free agent signing.
From the NY Times following the signing...
Ben Wallace, the defensive player of the year and the anchor of the tough-minded Detroit Pistons, shook up the N.B.A. last night when he agreed to a four-year, $60 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, according to two people with knowledge of Wallace's plans.
I do agree that Boozer was a bit of a consolation prize, but as FF noted there was no chance that any of the big 3 were coming to the Bulls due to their handshake agreement.

Edit: FF beat me to it so...what he said.

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Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.- JD Vance
If you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn’t be pardoned.- JD Vance on the J-6 insurrectionists

I'll get to your main points later, but Wallace may have been a name but he shouldn't have been pursued anyway. He came here, fine, but he sucked at the time and predictably sucked after he signed. He and Boozer are mid level guys, how can that be denied? They are not difference makers, which is what I imagine a major free agent acquisition is. Not saying you're doing this, but the ability of Chicago to attract secondary players at best isn't exactly noteworthy.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I am not revising anything. Check it out yourself. Look at the age, the skills, the teams chances with Wallace, and the money...is it still something that should have "shook up" the league? His skills were redundant. The bulls were already a good defensive team. They lacked scoring, which a defensive specialist wasn't going to solve.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Since you've already conceded the Kobe/KG point, I'm not really sure what you're still arguing. Those aren't secondary stars. Kobe was the best player in the world of summer in 2007 and specifically chose Chicago as the team he wanted to go to. For some reason everybody blames GarPax for not making that deal happen, but Kobe didn't want Deng included in the trade because he didn't want the roster totally gutted when he got here. But he's on record as saying he wanted to come here. It's just not accurate to say Chicago is "being forced to support a team with no future in a city that no star would care to consider playing for."

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Pistons under their prior owner led the league in attendance and were competitive every season. Dude dies, kids sold off the franchise and arena to some private equity vulture capital guy and he's screwed up the franchise. He's currently paying Mo Cheeks and Lawrence Frank not to coach the Pistons and someone named John Loyer to keep the head coach's seat warm for the next guy. Pistons are in the bottom of the league in attendance these days (27th out of 30).

Yep, that sounds exactly like the same situation as the Bulls are in. Guess I was wrong.

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I love you more than words can tell
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