Totally worth it to see it again though...

what an asshole Pedro was, picking on an old man like that.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Youre kidding right Hatchet?


I remember watching that game. Was a saturday afternoon. Most entertaining game ever.

'Wins', by itself, is useless. It needs context ... particularly knowledge of the caliber of team he was on and the caliber of teams he faced (e.g., strong or weak division).

Just to say a guy got "x" number of wins so he's more/less valuable then the fella with "y" wins is plain dumb .... on the flipside, basically the same could be said of VORP, (to placate the old fashioned) ... example, player with VORP of 2.5 means nothing until you tell me who he's replacing, what position, and (again) what caliber of team is this on.

It's handy, it's comfotable, but it's just not as valualbe anymore ... especially with the proliferation of so many specialized relief roles for non-starting pitchers.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

Typical tough guy Pedro Martinez. He goes in a steroid rage and picks on some poor old son of a bitch with a plate in his skull.

He would never have picked a fight with THIS Don Zimmer.

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1923-1927-1928-1932-1936-1937-1938-1939
1941-1943-1947-1949-1950-1951-1952-1953
1956-1958-1961-1962-1977-1978-1996-1998
1999-2000-2009
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XXI - XXV - XLII - XLVI

Of course "Wins" by itself is useless. However, W/L record is not. It's a statistic that measures actual game performance and directly addresses the object of the game unlike any other statistic. As far as worrying about the "caliber" of the teams a guy played on or against, the difference between lineups over the space of the single games in which a pitcher faces them is razor thin. If you can find me a pitcher who pitched all his games backed by the offense of the 1906 White Sox while facing the 1927 Yankees, I will grant your premise. But in the vast majority of games in which a starter pitches, the difference between his offense and the one he is facing will be less than a full run. Perhaps significant over the course of a season, but less than measurable within a single game.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Oh Godt.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Hi Carlos! You're about .590 for your career on some good teams and some bad teams. A pretty good pitcher.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Quit reading right there ... if you like it that's great ... stopping this before it starts.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Don what is your favorite sport?

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

If you really wanted to stop it, you didn't need to make this post.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Well luckily I don't have to check with you about when and what I post, so thanks.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Baseball by far; kind of you to ask.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Right. If you did, you wouldn't be such an asshole. I'm sure there are at least a few here who appreciate that though.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

On the heels of an exceptional week of terrific posts you continue to be a treasure.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

Thank you. I just didn't understand the high-handedness of your post. Obviously, I enjoy the topics I post about. If you don't care to discuss them, you certainly don't have to, but to make a post the way you did... I suspect you may have known how I might respond. And now here we are sniping back and forth.

Anyway, for anyone who really does want to have a thoughtful discussion about the subject of a starting pitchers' W/L record rather than just dismissing it as "useless" or "meaningless" per current conventional wisdom, I would simply ask for someone to supply the name of a starter who had a career of any length at all and who posted an ERA+ of better than 110 with a losing record. There are a few guys right at 110 with losing records- Bob Rush, Joel Horlen (1 game under), and Ken Raffensberger. But if W/L record is predicated on such things as overall ability of team(s), caliber of competition, or the dreaded "run support", surely in 113 seasons of modern baseball a creature with an ERA+ of 115 (120, 125?) must exist who was unlucky enough to "be assigned" a losing record in spite of his otherwise sterling performance.

I think when people blame the teams that a starting pitcher played on, they are underestimating the inordinate effect the starter has on the games he pitches. It would be as if each NFL team had to have a four-man rotation of quarterbacks and the Patriots had Tom Brady, Derek Anderson, Charlie Whitehurst, and Graham Harrell and when they went 4-12 we dismissed them as "terrible". In fact, they may have been the best team in the game on those days when Brady started.

Ultimately, when I see a guy had a career record of 172-90, I know a lot of stuff about him just from that. I know he handled over 2000 innings. I know he had an ERA+ that was, at a bare minimum, ten percent better than the average when he pitched and probably better than that. If you hand me any other single statistic by itself, I can't possibly glean as much information from it.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Wins and W\L are not useless, but they arent the best way to judge a pitcher either.


If you need one quick stat and the guy has been in the league long enough for things to even out(probably 8 years+), W/L works.


That's my take



So who is the smartest player still playing? Jeter and AJ have been named.

Obviously, we have easy access to a plethora of statistics. But if we're talking one single statistic to judge a starting pitcher's career performance, what would you suggest is better than his W/L record?

For a relief pitcher, I prefer WHIP since in the small space in which a reliever is asked to perform, keeping men off base is critical. Also, I would consider K/9 since the ability to strike a man out in the context of a small game is critical. These attributes aren't so important for a starter. In fact, scattering 12 hits over 13 innings and winning 1-0 is a "better" performance than being perfect through twelve and catching the losing end. But that leads into a discussion on the object of the game and what a pitcher's job is. I will argue vociferously that being perfect is not part of a pitcher's job description.




I think those two would have to be part of any conversation. Baseball IQ only goes so far though. Gordon Beckham is a pretty smart player, but I'll take a dummy who can hit more than .240 any day of the week.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don