The core players didn't get any better after 2016, some of them worse. How much of that you pin on Madden is the blame game.

Maddon understood that Almora was highly flawed and was doing a reasonable job of shielding him at first, but then Theo wouldn't trade the guy and it's pretty clear insisted that Almora get a starting job he couldn't handle.

Make the Verlander trade, don't need to trade for Quintana, still sign Verlander, trade Eloy or Happ the following year for more pieces and keep Cease. Joe didn't handle things well after that, I suspect he realized that they were fucked and lost interest.

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"When people want their version of the truth, they go find it, no matter how baseless their beliefs." -- Ken Rosenthal

Joe on P & S today always a good listen. So bright. A student of the game. Actually gives flickers of the truth which is highly unusual for baseball guys. Listening to him you'd never guess he was such a bad in-game manager..