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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:30 pm 
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Warren Newson wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
If the MLB put out a memo telling teams not to use electronic means to steal signs before the Astros embarked on their scheme and the Astros did it anyway, than I don't have much sympathy for them. I just think there's no getting around the fact that whether you're doing it on the field, whether you're doing it with binoculars in the stands, or whether you're using a camera, you're doing the exact same thing. You're observing something that's taking place in plain view in front of tens of thousands of people and trying to detect a pattern. You're not hacking into a private trove of information or into some sort of secure communication just because you're using a camera. What you're recording is taking place on the playing field in front of everyone. If the rules allow for one form of sign stealing and not another, I don't think they're consistent and should be changed (they both should be outlawed).

What's more, rank and file baseball people don't seem to respect this on the field/off the field distinction. The Astros and Red Sox were doing it openly and not acting like they were committing some sort of mortal sin. Compare that to steroids, which players by and large used in private and then lied about later. I'm sure that if the 1951 Giants were stealing signs from the stands, the late 80's and early 90's White Sox were stealing signs from the stands, and the Astros and Red Sox were doing it with a camera, there were several other teams doing it throughout history. It just seems odd that this has become an appalling act now.

At the December 1961 Winter Meetings, the National League banned the use of a "mechanical device" to steal signs.[7] The use of electronic equipment is not specifically forbidden by MLB rules, but in 2001, Sandy Alderson, while serving as executive vice president for baseball operations of MLB, issued a memorandum stating that teams cannot use electronic equipment to communicate with each other during games, especially for the purpose of stealing signs.

The line is not blurry.


I'm not necessarily saying the line is blurry. I'm saying the line doesn't make a lot of sense, and many people who have been a part of major league baseball and are currently a part of major league baseball seem to agree.

Sanctuary cities would agree with you. If the rules don't make a lot of sense, just fuckin' ignore them. That's the ticket. Hand out PEDs and adderall like they're M&Ms. Free jars of vaseline for every pitcher.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:35 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
If the MLB put out a memo telling teams not to use electronic means to steal signs before the Astros embarked on their scheme and the Astros did it anyway, than I don't have much sympathy for them. I just think there's no getting around the fact that whether you're doing it on the field, whether you're doing it with binoculars in the stands, or whether you're using a camera, you're doing the exact same thing. You're observing something that's taking place in plain view in front of tens of thousands of people and trying to detect a pattern. You're not hacking into a private trove of information or into some sort of secure communication just because you're using a camera. What you're recording is taking place on the playing field in front of everyone. If the rules allow for one form of sign stealing and not another, I don't think they're consistent and should be changed (they both should be outlawed).

What's more, rank and file baseball people don't seem to respect this on the field/off the field distinction. The Astros and Red Sox were doing it openly and not acting like they were committing some sort of mortal sin. Compare that to steroids, which players by and large used in private and then lied about later. I'm sure that if the 1951 Giants were stealing signs from the stands, the late 80's and early 90's White Sox were stealing signs from the stands, and the Astros and Red Sox were doing it with a camera, there were several other teams doing it throughout history. It just seems odd that this has become an appalling act now.

At the December 1961 Winter Meetings, the National League banned the use of a "mechanical device" to steal signs.[7] The use of electronic equipment is not specifically forbidden by MLB rules, but in 2001, Sandy Alderson, while serving as executive vice president for baseball operations of MLB, issued a memorandum stating that teams cannot use electronic equipment to communicate with each other during games, especially for the purpose of stealing signs.

The line is not blurry.


I'm not necessarily saying the line is blurry. I'm saying the line doesn't make a lot of sense, and many people who have been a part of major league baseball and are currently a part of major league baseball seem to agree.

Sanctuary cities would agree with you. If the rules don't make a lot of sense, just fuckin' ignore them. That's the ticket. Hand out PEDs and adderall like they're M&Ms. Free jars of vaseline for every pitcher.


Or you can improve the rule by making all sign stealing, regardless of how it's done, illegal.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:40 pm 
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Warren Newson wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
If the MLB put out a memo telling teams not to use electronic means to steal signs before the Astros embarked on their scheme and the Astros did it anyway, than I don't have much sympathy for them. I just think there's no getting around the fact that whether you're doing it on the field, whether you're doing it with binoculars in the stands, or whether you're using a camera, you're doing the exact same thing. You're observing something that's taking place in plain view in front of tens of thousands of people and trying to detect a pattern. You're not hacking into a private trove of information or into some sort of secure communication just because you're using a camera. What you're recording is taking place on the playing field in front of everyone. If the rules allow for one form of sign stealing and not another, I don't think they're consistent and should be changed (they both should be outlawed).

What's more, rank and file baseball people don't seem to respect this on the field/off the field distinction. The Astros and Red Sox were doing it openly and not acting like they were committing some sort of mortal sin. Compare that to steroids, which players by and large used in private and then lied about later. I'm sure that if the 1951 Giants were stealing signs from the stands, the late 80's and early 90's White Sox were stealing signs from the stands, and the Astros and Red Sox were doing it with a camera, there were several other teams doing it throughout history. It just seems odd that this has become an appalling act now.

At the December 1961 Winter Meetings, the National League banned the use of a "mechanical device" to steal signs.[7] The use of electronic equipment is not specifically forbidden by MLB rules, but in 2001, Sandy Alderson, while serving as executive vice president for baseball operations of MLB, issued a memorandum stating that teams cannot use electronic equipment to communicate with each other during games, especially for the purpose of stealing signs.

The line is not blurry.


I'm not necessarily saying the line is blurry. I'm saying the line doesn't make a lot of sense, and many people who have been a part of major league baseball and are currently a part of major league baseball seem to agree.

Sanctuary cities would agree with you. If the rules don't make a lot of sense, just fuckin' ignore them. That's the ticket. Hand out PEDs and adderall like they're M&Ms. Free jars of vaseline for every pitcher.


Or you can improve the rule by making all sign stealing, regardless of how it's done, illegal.

Or steal a base.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:43 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:53 am 
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Who cheated during the Red Sox / Astros playoff series in 18? Or did Boston just cheat better ?

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:13 am 
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No shit, RFDC. Do you think guys like Tony Gwynn or Frank Thomas or Ichiro knew or even cared what pitch was coming? Nope.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:51 am 
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badrogue17 wrote:
Who cheated during the Red Sox / Astros playoff series in 18? Or did Boston just cheat better ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8g_JidtNCo

"What was I gonna do? Accuse him of being a better cheater than me?!"

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:46 pm 
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Pedro Martinez called Mike Fiers a hypocrite and a crap teammate for not calling guys out when he actually on Houston.

If Fiers keeps his ring and playoff share Pedro may have a point despite what some of the numbers geeks at ESPN whine.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:04 pm 
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How many did Pedro , through his own actions, get his own teammates hit by pitches.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:16 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
How many did Pedro , through his own actions, get his own teammates hit by pitches.


Plenty, I'm sure. But unlike the joke Ozzie called out in 06, he was there to even the score. Plus some.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:35 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
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Especially when major league umpires moved their strike zone 4-6 inches outside with great regularity. Both he and Glavine stole more strikes than any two pitchers in my recollection. :oops: :oops: :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:57 pm 
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Dusty's the man.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:01 pm 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
Dusty's the man.

:lol:

How does this guy keep getting gigs?

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:05 pm 
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Finally a real punishment for the Astros


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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:47 pm 
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KDdidit wrote:
Finally a real punishment for the Astros


exactly. how soon until the mutiny?

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:18 pm 
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KDdidit wrote:
Finally a real punishment for the Astros

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:25 pm 
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Well, you can't accuse them of outsmarting the competition now.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:00 pm 
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Seriously?
I mean... lol. Dudley dude.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:19 pm 
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Can't believe Dusty got another job. Good for him.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:09 pm 
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He's an A to B guy. A to B guys are useful. Don't see how he's useful in this particular situation. Unless the franchise is planning on circling the wagons. Which isn't too smart.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:33 pm 
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An Astros fan by the name of Tony Adams went through every Astros home game in the 2017 season and logged trash can bangs. Which, as you know, was the mechanism via which Astros players in the clubhouse signaled to hitters which pitch was coming.

Adams listened to every pitch from the Astros’ 2017 home games and made a note of any banging noise he could detect. There were 20 home games for which he did not have access to video. There were three “home” games which took place at Tropicana Field in St. Petersburg, Florida due to the team being displaced by hurricane Harvey.

Adams logged over 8,200 pitches and found banging before over 1,100 of those pitches. He graphed which players got the most bangs during their at bats. Marwin Gonzalez got the most, with bangs coming before 147 of 776 pitches seen, followed by George Springer, who got bangs on 139 of 933. José Altuve had the least among regulars, with only 24 bangs in 866 pitches. It’s worth noting that a lack of banging was also signal. Specifically, for a fastball. As such, Astros hitters were helped on a much higher percentage of pitches than what is depicted in the graphs themselves.
http://signstealingscandal.com/players/

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:12 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
He's an A to B guy. A to B guys are useful. Don't see how he's useful in this particular situation. Unless the franchise is planning on circling the wagons. Which isn't too smart.

Dusty is useful because he will coddle the players and project a "us against the world" mentality.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:21 pm 
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Chet Coppock's Fur Coat wrote:
Nardi wrote:
He's an A to B guy. A to B guys are useful. Don't see how he's useful in this particular situation. Unless the franchise is planning on circling the wagons. Which isn't too smart.

Dusty is useful because he will coddle the players and project a "us against the world" mentality.

Yeah, I know. Circling the wagons and flipping off the world is a horrible way to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:57 pm 
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Dusty was clearly hired to present an image of integrity (and even a lack of sophistication), but he was happy to look the other way with Barry Bonds on his team.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:27 pm 
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Can Darren Baker still sit in his lap?

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:33 am 
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Douchebag wrote:
Can Darren Baker still sit in his lap?


It's fine in San Francisco or a Catholic church but Houston would have an issue with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:57 am 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
Dusty was clearly hired to present an image of integrity (and even a lack of sophistication), but he was happy to look the other way with Barry Bonds on his team.


Every manager in baseball history would be happy to look the other way for a .370/.582/1.381 slash line.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:47 pm 
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I'm trying to explain to my Astros buds down here just how terrible the Dusty ExperienceTM is.

They don't seem to understand, I guess like any tragedy you have to live through it to fully comprehend the damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:13 pm 
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One Post wrote:
I'm trying to explain to my Astros buds down here just how terrible the Dusty ExperienceTM is.

They don't seem to understand, I guess like any tragedy you have to live through it to fully comprehend the damage.

:lol: :lol: They will learn soon enough

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 Post subject: Re: Cheating Astros
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:50 pm 
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One Post wrote:
I'm trying to explain to my Astros buds down here just how terrible the Dusty ExperienceTM is.

They don't seem to understand, I guess like any tragedy you have to live through it to fully comprehend the damage.

:lol:

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