Better thread would be... who wouldn't juice for the coin...

Larry Biittner was not a steroid user. After he retired,he opened a doughnut shop downstate,though. I think he was juicing up with Boston Cremes,shot directly in his ass!

_________________
favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

dante bichette is my favorite science experiment, followed closely by the rest of the 1990's era colorado rockies.

several years ago, bichette's kid was on tv in the little league world series, and i think he needs to piss in a cup too. you know, a typical 6' 2" 210 pound 12 year old, turning on 70 MPH fastballs and hitting 350' homers. all-american kid.

Completely agree.

While I would be really disappointed to learn that Frank was on the juice, it would not surprise me, all of em are under suspicion IMO.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Brady Anderson and his 50 homers in 96.

When I think steroids,this Anderson guy is the 1st name I think of because
of that one season that sticks out there. What a abberation! It's like slapping
the grand old game in the face!

_________________
favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

I think Pud Selig and the players union have to take a lot of the blame. They didn't do a thing to stop the use of steroids and it sounds like they accepted their use. Lou Merloni recently gave an interview where he said the Red Sox had a doctor talk to the team about how to properly use steroids. Reading stuff like this it's easy to see why the game is so dirty.

http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/blog/20 ... roids-bus/

Frank Thomas took roids as well as Ken Griffy Jr. All the Alomar's & Molina's too.

Lay off the Hash dude...

Manny as a rookie:
http://www.kannels.com/NewStart/Picture ... amirez.jpg

Present day Manny:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2008/writer ... ersAP2.jpg

Big Frank as a rookie:
http://my.execpc.com/~pjsports/THOMASF/BCM9221.jpg

Big Frank 'almost' present day
http://newsblog.projo.com/archives/thomas.jpg

Who has the greater size desparity? Now, who's is greater based on fat, and who's is greater based on muscle?

_________________

nobody is beyond suspicion, no matter how hard a defense you put up, and no matter how bad you want to believe your hero would never do that. no, i dont think frank did them, but it is not out of the question to suspect anyone from that entire era. its too bad for the people who didnt, because they never will be able to prove they didnt.

for every nut who went overboard, like sosa and mcgwire and bonds and didnt care that the obvious physical transformation would raise eyebrows as long as they kept improving power numbers, perhaps there is another guy who was subtle, and realized too big and too strong would make people wonder, and took it easy on them, and was satisfied with subtle imrovements, and didnt WANT to poison their bodies to the point of looking like freak shows.

who knows. we never will. and anyone who says thome and big frank and any other "clean" athlete DID NOT take steroids in a matter-of-fact way has no idea what they are talking about and making blind assumptions.

I've never said anything about Thome. And what makes me so sure about Thomas is his play on the field, and what he's said and done about roids off the field.

_________________

some took them to get healthy quicker, too...

Well said Frankie....Thome I'm not sure but at least with Frank he has spoken out on the subject. Thome kinda comes off as apathetic on the whole situation...which is not good in my opinion. At the same time Thome's numbers have declined at a somewhat normal rate,so you never know..

Jeff Bagwell...his body did a Sammy in no time at all

_________________
"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."

what has he said and done that makes him different? he has said he didnt do them, just like a bunch of users who also said that, until they got caught red-handed, then they made excuses. a lot of these guys did the whole "boys club and girls club of america", "say no to drugs" routine, standing up and preaching to kids like hypocrites while they were doing it.

look, frank likely DIDNT do them, and he was a GREAT hitter, but we as observers of the game cannot say for sure whether he did or did not inject substances by what we saw from him on the field or what he has said, or to who he said them. there is a growing list of players who have been lying through their teeth about all this and then later apologizing. the obvious ones will fall. the smarter, more clever users who didnt go completely overboard and blow up like the michelin man will likely never fall or be heavily suspected, and NO player from this era will ever be a no-brainer "he didnt do it" guy to me.

for anyone interested in some laughs, here is a great site full of bullshit quotes from users saying they didnt do it, and others saying they did and whats the big deal, and all kinds of stuff. its pretty funny (in a not funny kind of way):

http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/bse- ... arry-Bonds

At his peak, there was nobody better than MANNY. He is the best right handed hitter I have ever seen. There wasn't a "wow, look how big he got!" moment, nor was there anything like that with his stats like alot of these other guys. He put up great, consistent numbers for a long stretch of time. Then, got older....then, got hurt. In turn, his numbers went down. Even when he was "healthy" later in his career, he very rarely hit HRs to right field because he couldn't anymore. His skills clearly went backwards.

The only thing that got bigger with Manny were his clothes and hair

_________________
"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."

frank was probably a bit bigger and stronger earlier in his career due to the fact he was a football player. naturally he looked bigger and stronger than the typical rookie. a lot of young baseball players barely in their 20's are skinny, and then get bigger, whether they use or not. Guys like mcgwire, sosa and bonds got So big So fast it was alarming beyond the norm. they were idiots who didnt think through what they were doing or realize it at the time.

again, frank likely DIDN'T use them, but no amount of photos or stats can prove he did or didn't. he was a big boy in college, a big boy as a rookie, and he stayed a big boy as a pro. He just didn't go down the science experiment freakshow route that some others did. who knows if he dabbled or didn't. i hope he didnt, because the guy was a great hitter.

Wrong.

And stupid example....who just got docked 50 games again?

_________________

Thats the point Francis...

First of all Manny was a better hitter than Frank and he did it longer.(9 straight years with 100 RBI...Nine Times)

I know you think Frank is the best Right handed hitter ever...but he's not. He wasnt even the best of his era. Pujols and Manny are better...and they both excel in the postseason...which Above Suspicion Frank never did.

Secondly everything you say about Frank could have been said about Manny last week.

The only difference is Frank speaking out against roids.

Speaking out against PED's does not guarantee that he never used them.

I was wrong with best ever.

Again, Frank Thomas and Babe Ruth are the only guys in the history of the game to hit 30+HRs, and have 100+ RBIs, Walks, Hits, and Runs in 5 straight seasons.

Was Babe Ruth the best hitter of his era? Yes. Was Frank Thomas the best hitter of his era? Yes.

_________________

Yeah I just disagree...Frank Was Awesome but his period of Dominance was just not as long as Manny or even Pujols now...acutally Albert has probably passed both of them now.

But If you consider Manny and Frank the same ERA...I gotta take the guy who did it longer and in October.

Hey Scott...On ESPN this week when reporting the untimely demise of Chuck Daly...the update guy kept saying

"Chuck Daly...whose teams gave the Bulls all sorts of Headaches..."

Not really. There's not much arc to Manny's career. He started off great, continued with great #s, and he's still great. He missed games early, in the middle and later in his career, so that's consistent too. He's gotten older of course, but he hasn't been hurt more than any other part of his career and his skills have clearly NOT gone backwards. He still hits HRs to all fields...13 to right last year....Frank hit zero to right his last couple of years.
Manny's played nearly an entire season of post season baseball...he's had good series and bad ones. Frank's only play in four...2 good, 2 bad. That's a lame comparison. Here's another lame one, Manny's never won an MVP award...which doesn't mean anything...just sayin he hasn't. He hasn't even come in 2nd in the balloting either. That's kinda strange for the the greatest right handed hitter of his era.
Solely based on overall career stats, Manny's the better hitter. So is Pujols, so is A-Rod and others. But every year we find out another one of them was/is cheating. They deserve to get dropped from the list for me when I compare great hitters of an era. Manny's a cheater so "he gone!". If it comes out that Frank was using PEDs then he'll be off the list too...but I doubt that'll happen. And I hope Pujols is legit too.

most users will never be caught, because most users didnt go fucking crazy and use them to extremes like some of the obvious guys. i dont think mannys career stats indicate any particular spike either. he was very productive consistently from early on straight through last week. there was never a point with him where you would raise an eyebrow and say "boy he got good all of a sudden".

Craig Biggio
Larry Walker
Vinny Castilla
Jeff Kent
Bobby Abreu
Carlos Delgado
Albert Pujols
Ryan Howard

_________________

He has slowed a bit since his peak...but I was more referring to the No Wow moment and consistent numbers...he didnt all of a sudden get bigger...all those arguements were used for Frank and could have been used for Manny....Thats the point you dont know with any of these guys.




When were the 2 good ones for Frank? Manny's numbers in the postseason are awesome. Franks are mediocre at best. 4 series is more than a lot of players get.



Yeah but he did win a WS MVP



My point was/is there is no "he never got big all of a sudden" MANNY or "his numbers were consistent" A ROD or "he spoke out against roids"

Those things prove nothing.

I dont think Frank used them...but he may have.