Craig Biggio
Larry Walker
Vinny Castilla
Jeff Kent
Bobby Abreu
Carlos Delgado
Albert Pujols
Ryan Howard

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He has slowed a bit since his peak...but I was more referring to the No Wow moment and consistent numbers...he didnt all of a sudden get bigger...all those arguements were used for Frank and could have been used for Manny....Thats the point you dont know with any of these guys.




When were the 2 good ones for Frank? Manny's numbers in the postseason are awesome. Franks are mediocre at best. 4 series is more than a lot of players get.



Yeah but he did win a WS MVP



My point was/is there is no "he never got big all of a sudden" MANNY or "his numbers were consistent" A ROD or "he spoke out against roids"

Those things prove nothing.

I dont think Frank used them...but he may have.

what about carlos lee, that guy used to rake and now he is so so.

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That's my purse! I don't know you!

He hasn't slowed...really ever. I didn't want to use stats but you've forced me to.
Here's a breakdown of Manny's career basically in thirds (excluding this year which btw is on pace to be as good as any other year he's had):
first third of his career: 2,509 ABs, 154 HRs, 517 RBI, .302 Avg.
second third of career: 2,495 ABs, 193 HRs, 623 RBI, .331 Avg.
final third of his career: 2,606 ABs, 180 HRs, 585 RBI, .310 Avg.
His only subpar years were when he was 25 years old and 35 years old respectively...and he's all but admitted to playing "poorly" in recent times in Boston just to get out of town which is supported by how he tore it up in the NL after leaving the Red Sox. I have no idea how big Manny is now compared to how he was in the past...I think Palmeiro proved that physique isn't the only sign of PED use. And besides, Manny's been caught so the speculation is over...he's a cheater.



1993 ALCS 6 games, .353 Avg, .593 OBP, 1.122 OPS, 1 HR, 3 RBI, 2 Rs, 10 BBs (twice intentionally...why? cause he was tearing them up)
2006 ALDS 3 games, .500 Avg, .583 OBP, 1.783 OPS, 2 HRs, 2 RBI, 3 Rs

Which one of those is mediocre?



Good for him, Frank won 2 MVP awards and should have had a third.



There's not one thing to point to and absolutely know someone was using PEDs...except a positive test. Manny has one of those, Frank has none. That proves something, I think.

Frank I believe the evil Barry Bonds fits this elite group.

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

In 2006 at the age of 35 his homeruns dropped 10 and RBI dropped 40 I guess thats what I was looking at thinking his numbers dropped...I dont know why you dont count that year



Tearing em up? With 5 singles and 1 homerun?

I forgot about the 2006 playoffs cuz it wasnt with the Sox...my mistake...but overall his playoff numbers are mediocre no?


Sammy Apologi has none.






Thats assuming Frank was clean. And how do you know Manny wasnt clean and finishing 3rd behind 2 steroid users?


All Im saying is NOONE is above suspicion....and Manny has had a better career than Frank...but obviously he's a cheater so I dont know.

Carlos Lee Albert Pujols and Ryan Howard are up for debate...

Are you kidding me?
I did include that. I said "His only subpar years were when he was 25 years old and 35 years old respectively."...and I also explained it with "and he's all but admitted to playing "poorly" in recent times (meaning 2006) in Boston just to get out of town which is supported by how he tore it up in the NL after leaving the Red Sox."



Like I said, he's played in 4 post season series. That's hardly a good sample size like Manny has. It's an apples/orange comparison. If you want to compare something, compare their career #s which are very similar. And considering the fact that Manny has been proven to be a cheater, that makes Frank's #s even more impressive.



And how do you know Manny isn't an alien from another planet posing as a baseball player? He kinda looks like the thing in Predator. We don't KNOW either but we do know that he's cheating now; do you think this is the first time he's ever used? I don't.



Right, nobody's above suspicion. But Manny is a proven cheater and his career #s are inflated because of it...so why drag Frank Thomas down with him when he's never been named by anyone as cheater.

How many sereis does he need? Manny has always been good in postseason. Frank has not always been good in the postseason.


So your arguement is he was ALWAYS consistent EXCEPT for 2 years??
Then he wasnt consistent I guess.
I didnt think you meant 2006 cuz thats NOT the year he jaked it...he did that in 2008.



Look if you and most people believe Frank was clean...good for you. He probably was.
(Youll notice he's not even on my CMON list...and most of baseballs stars are.)

I said in my first post that Manny has been consistent his entire career. If you those 2 years demonstrate inconsistency then you're nuts....they were still good years.
And actually, I meant 2007 (when he was 35). He was on pace to hit 34 HRs, have 110 RBI, and 107 Runs in '08 before he went to the Dodgers...and he was hitting .299.

I don't KNOW if Frank was clean or not, but I do know Manny isn't...so the comparison is lost unless you can prove Frank cheated too. Than we can compare two cheaters.

I agree Manny's a cheater and Frank might not be.

Eric Chavez
Joe Borowski
Mike Piazza
Matt Williams
Troy Percival
Vladimir Gurrero

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Chavez is already on the list

Jo Bo
Matt Williams
and Percival are going on the list

Vlad...Im not sure

It seems like MLB is searching for a new poster boy with the fall of ARoid and Manny, everytime i go to mlb.com it seems like Pujols is plastered everywhere. They better triple; quadruple test that guy for PEDs.

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Yeah putting all your eggs in that basket is going to come back to bite them. They would be better off pushing some younger stars who don't have the traditional steroid look to them such as Carl Crawford, Dustin Pedroia, and Grady Sizemore I am not saying those guys are clean but there is at least less suspicion of them than of Albert Pujols especially since two of his teamates have been linked to the juice/HGH...Glaus and Ankiel. He did play with Rolen who has a ton of red flags and it is proven that Tony LaRussa will turn a blind eye to any sort of steroid abuse....Big Mac.

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Derek Bell
Juan Gonzalez
Mo Vaughn
Preston Wilson
Raul Mondesi
Ellis Burks

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5 for 6 possibly 6 for 6...Ill have to hear the case agianst Ellis Burks

Was never really a power hitter, then he started putting up some pretty big numbers from 1996-2002. It's a shame his power numbers did not rub off on his cousin "Downtown" Roosevelt Brown.

His Stats:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/burksel01.shtml

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Darren Daulton
Chipper Jones

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

I was just about to mention him. He's way too old to be getting better.

How about Chipper hitting .364 his best at age 36?

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

hank aaron had his most homers, highest slugging percentage, and highest on-base percentage when he was 37. no, chipper jones isnt in hank aarons league as a player, im just using this example to point out that it isn't unprecedented for a player to peak well into his 30's.

Hank Aaron

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team Mully & Hanley
team Meatpants

He might have been mentioned, but I'm fairly certain Luis Gonzalez was on the juice.

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

I was surprised it took this long to see Pujols show up in this discussion...

While I would like to believe that he is clean, it would be naive of me to say for sure...

heres another good candidate: jay bell. 10-15 homer guy until he hits arizona, then POW! he and gonzo, finley and williams are smashing homers all over the place. williams had a history of hitting with some power, but those other 3? mighty suspicious that they all hit their "prime" right when they all start playing together. hmmmm......

Hank also never had a 50HR season (unlike a lot of the other names in this thread), but was the model of putting up good/great numbers over a long period of time.


Oh wait, kinda like Fra....

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They are all guilty until proven otherwise. I only trust a handful of players that began their careers within the last 20 years. Too many players look a little different now than they did before.

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We all have private ails. The troublemakers are they who need public cures for their private ails.- Eric Hoffer