1970 team

1st base konerko
2nd base sandberg
3rd base santo
shortstop kessinger
lf billy williams
cf jerry morales
rf Andre Dawson

DH Dick Allen

SP:
Jenkins
Maddux
Wilbur Wood
Jack McDowell
RP:
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter
Randy Meyers

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

I'm not sure how you guys are coming up with the idea that Aramis Ramirez was a better offensive player than Ventura. I certainly don't believe that to be the case. Regardless of what stats one wants to cite to support such an argument, there can't be anyone who followed both their careers who would actually suggest that Ramirez was close to the player Ventura was.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You must have something against Aramis. He's had a great career.

He was great for the Cubs for most of the 8 years he was here and has been good/great for Mil

I don't have a damn thing against him. He's been a more than decent hitter, but he's certainly not going to be a memorable player when his career is over. "Great" is overstating it by a large margin.

Anyway, Ventura is a guy who isn't that far below the line (Santo) for a Hall of Fame third sacker. Ramirez just isn't that kind of player.

If you just want to compare based on adjusted OPS, Ventura is at 114 in his career and Ramirez is at 116 without his years at the end when he will likely be fading.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So ignore the stats?

Ramirez hit 25 homeruns 10 times.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a forgettable player who did that.

That's a great career. Especially when you couple it with 7 years with a .300 plus average and 100 RBI's

Ramirez is a better offensive player than Ventura. That's it. If you want to count defense (which you usually downplay) its close

To say Ventura is clearly better is just not true

Ramirez wasn't clearly better. He actually wasn't as good. Are you now ignoring adjusted OPS? Because you usually like that. And when Ramirez is finished, I guarantee his will be lower than Ventura's.

And yeah, Ramirez has more career homers in a time and place when and where it was easier to hit them. This year he'll probably get about 15.

Ramirez is exactly what's wrong with SABRmetrics. He has all kinds of numbers that can cause someone reading a page to believe he was great. When in fact he wasn't an impactful player at all.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

And I don't downplay defense at third base. I downplay it at first and on the outfield corners where it is highly overrated.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You are way off on Ramirez. He has had plenty of impact. He impacted many playoff races. Famously 2003 and certainly 2007 and 08.

Not to mention the 3 top TEN MVP vote finishes. To say he wasnt impactful is ignorant.

Im not ignoring anything. Ramirez is higher. Im ignoring your projection.

Sammy Sosa

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We can revisit my projection in a year or so. And my view of him isn't "ignorant". I'm certain it's how he will be remembered. How many Cub fans (besides maybe yourself) do you know who were sorry when he left?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

We can call Sammy a lot of things, but forgettable isn't one of them.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

The White Sox were a very good team during their 86 year titleless run
Aramis Ramirez is a forgettable player
The 69 Cubs have a parade to remember how awesome they were every year
Every Cub fan thinks Jorge Soler is guarenteed to win 15 MVP's

Probably the same amount as Sosa since they left on a bad note.

But the smart ones who paid attention knew that Ramirez was by far the most clutch hitter on all three division winning teams.


Sorry, JORR, 350 Homeruns doesnt get forgotten. Especially when a majority of them are for a National team.

The luster of the 3-4 really good years he'd had worn off by that point. It's really funny to me how many Cubs of that era were welcomed to leave. Almost as funny as how many Cub fans tried to discount the juiced numbers once they were gone....but now

I'd easily take Ventura on an all around basis, and am amused at how much "greater" Ramirez is now perceived to be at the plate. And Ventura was a more "clutch" hitter, imo.

Remember, Comiskey II also wasn't exactly the bandbox it is now (at least not during Robin's years)

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Funnier still...

Trying to discount a guy with 350 homeruns.

Also, 3-4 really good years?

He hit 25 homeruns every year he was on the Cubs except for the one year he played half a season and hit 15


I dont think he's way better than Ventura (see my original posts in the start of the thread)

but to call a guy who was that consistently good for that long, forgettable, is inaccurate.

How many people really fondly remember the great Toby Harrah? Arguably one of the best SS in the AL in the 70's, with big power for the era in a bad park and a solid glove.

JORR may logically be putting him in that class. Solid, but unless you were a fan of his teams, you'd never bring his name up in any "best of" discussions. Or think about him.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

I thought Cub fans believed Ramirez was a bit of a dog who put up huge numbers when the pressure was off. (Note: I'm not arguing the Ventura/Ramirez comparison - just the general perception of Ramirez and the minimal consternation surrounding his departure).

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“Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation’s highest office.”- JD Vance
“My god, what an !diot.”- JD Vance tweet on Trump
“I’m a ‘Never Trump’ guy”- JD Vance

There is some of that, Zippy

I can only speak for myself.

Many people forget the good times after bad ones.

Im sure many will look back at Carlos Marmol as a worthless guy. Obviously he wasnt.

Bryan- Do you think Jeff Kent was a better player than Ryne Sandberg?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I havent researched that comparison specifically. Id say probably not as good but real close.


I dont know how to judge the steroid era other than using WAR so at least your up against other users.

WAR says Sandberg

I haven't followed this whole argument.

To me, Ventura is easily the choice here... Ramirez put up some nice triple crown numbers... but largely, he was a bad teammate, horrible defensive player, and had a habit of sucking at the most critical times the team needed him. The most damning thing to me is that most Cub fans were happy to be rid of him... not exactly the way to build a legacy to being remembered as one of the franchises' better players.

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1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Ramirez was not good in the playoffs in 07 and 08

But in 2003 down the stretch and in the playoffs and 2004-5 regular seasons he got a ton of big hits.

Honestly, for me Ill remember him fondly and probably most of all for ending the Replace Santo at third base thing.


He was not a horrible defensive player. He was average for the Cubs. Even had a couple good years with the glove. And I dont know how he was a horrible teammate

I don't think it's close. And I use Sandberg/Kent so it doesn't become a Cubs/Sox thing. Sandberg was a superior player to Kent. And it isn't close. The raw numbers may tell a different story.

This may get some disagreement from Regular Reader who I don't think is a big Jim Rice fan. But Rice has become a SABRmetric whipping boy. There is a statistical argument to be made that Dwight Evans was a better player than Rice. But even Evans knows he wasn't better than Rice. If you actually saw their teams you know Rice was the centerpiece of the batting order. He made them go.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I don't know what your parameters are Jorr

Ramirez will be remembered with Beltre Token and a few others as the best 3b of the 00's

I'd say the same about Ventura in the 90s

But to say anyone who hits 300 and possibly 400 home runs before he's done is forgettable is just wrong


Ramirez was a huge part (probably the biggest if you take 03, 07, 08) of three division winning teams, That's impact.

What did Ventura do that left an indelible impression on MLB history?

God glove man? Lots of grand slams and a one arm release swing?



Btw, I said this in another thread but the defensive side of WAR is way overvalued. That's why guys like Zobrist, Lawrie and Barney appear in top tens



Isn't it possible you didnt value certain things like obp as much back then?


Sabr stats are loaded with holes because if circumstance. I agree with you there.

I just consider Ramirez an insignificant player. He put up numbers, yeah, but I can't see anyone considering him historically great or even close to great. I wouldn't call Ventura great either but he isn't far below it. Ventura's comparison would be Boyer. Ramirez is more like Carney Lansford playing in a small park in the heart of the steroid/juiced ball era.

There is more to the game than raw numbers. What SABRmetrics has done is cause a certain type of fan to try to "discover" a guy who isn't great on the surface and declare him great based upon a particular statistic or, more often, a complex aggregate statistic. In fact, if a player is great, it will always be obvious.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

That's an interesting discussion. I don't think the world valued walks as much in the past. That being the case, guys weren't necessarily trying to take them. Should we reconsider and retroactively put Ferris Fain, Eddie Yost, and Camera-Eye Bishop in the Hall of Fame. Or are they just who they were in their time?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Ramirez averages .286 30 HR and 100 RBI a year.

You can't put up hollow numbers over that long a period

I'm not saying they're "hollow" numbers. I'm not saying he was less than a good player. He's just not as good as those numbers may suggest. I'm trying to think about other guys who are like that. Here's a guy sort of in that vein that I like- Carlos Lee. He did a lot of raking and has similar type numbers to Ramirez. Comparing Ramirez to Ventura is sort of like comparing Lee to Amos Otis. In both comparisons there is no question the latter player is superior.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Jorr you know baseball but your opinion doesn't constitute "no question"

Especially when the numbers, flawed as they may be, don't back you up


I agree on Carlos Lee being a solid comp but I don't think he is forgettable either

Ron Coomer is forgettable. Kevin Mass is forgettable

Ventura and Ramirez are close.

Ramirez placed top 15 in MVP voting 5 times. Impact

And Ramirez wouldn't have left Crain in

The Elo rating system suggests Ventura is far better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don