Big Chicagoan wrote:
whistler wrote:
never heard o' him.
who the fuck is that?
who the fuck is that?
King of Zamunda
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| Thoughts on Jay Jaffe https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=115583 |
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| Author: | Warren Newson [ Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
I love reading his Hall of Fame candidate profiles this time of the year, but I think he has a far too permissive stance on steroid users in The Hall. What do you guys think? |
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| Author: | whistler [ Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
never heard o' him. who the fuck is that? |
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| Author: | newper [ Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
I'm extremely permissive on roid use. They deserve to go in. To not have them in is to ignore a part of history, IMHO. |
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| Author: | Warren Newson [ Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
He developed JAWS, which is a metric for comparing various Hall of Fame candidates/Hall of Famers from different eras. He used to write for Sports Illustrated and he now writes for Fangraphs. He analyses every major candidate on the Hall of Fame ballot and compares them to guys currently in The Hall. Here are his thoughts on Edgar Martinez: https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/jaws-an ... -martinez/ |
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| Author: | HawaiiYou [ Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
NO ROIDS GUYS PERIOD! |
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| Author: | Warren Newson [ Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
newper wrote: I'm extremely permissive on roid use. They deserve to go in. To not have them in is to ignore a part of history, IMHO. It's definitely part of history. I just think you have to be careful. Certain guys were great solely because they used roids (Sosa & McGwire), other guys would have been great without the roid use (Bonds & Clemens). |
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| Author: | HawaiiYou [ Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
Warren Newson wrote: newper wrote: I'm extremely permissive on roid use. They deserve to go in. To not have them in is to ignore a part of history, IMHO. It's definitely part of history. I just think you have to be careful. Certain guys were great solely because they used roids (Sosa & McGwire), other guys would have been great without the roid use (Bonds & Clemens). no way. they knew what they were doing. they knew they were risking their legacy's. Letting cheaters in that era degrades guys like Frank Thomas who never did roids. |
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| Author: | Big Chicagoan [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
whistler wrote: never heard o' him. who the fuck is that? King of Zamunda |
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| Author: | newper [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
HawaiiYou wrote: no way. they knew what they were doing. they knew they were risking their legacy's. Letting cheaters in that era degrades guys like Frank Thomas who never did roids. Letting in Harold Baines does far more to degrade Frank Thomas than letting in Barry Bonds. |
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| Author: | redskingreg [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
Everyone got fat and happy from the roids (players, owners, media, etc). It’s ludicrous that they’re being left out. Vote them in based on their numbers, and add a narrative at the museum, stating that steroid use was rampant during the 20-25 year span. Those years were entertaining as hell. Ignoring it is doing a disservice to future generations. |
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| Author: | JORR [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
Warren Newson wrote: newper wrote: I'm extremely permissive on roid use. They deserve to go in. To not have them in is to ignore a part of history, IMHO. It's definitely part of history. I just think you have to be careful. Certain guys were great solely because they used roids (Sosa & McGwire), other guys would have been great without the roid use (Bonds & Clemens). There are a lot of assumptions there in when guys began juicing up. I know the conventional wisdom is that Bonds already had Hall of Famer numbers when he began juicing, but do we really know that? He had Hall of Fame numbers when he got in bed with BALCO. We don't really know what he did before that. We also don't know if Frank Thomas is clean. But there's no way I think Sammy Sosa was a better ballplayer than Harold Baines or Andre Dawson or Dave Parker. It's not an easy thing. |
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| Author: | badrogue17 [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
Big Chicagoan wrote: whistler wrote: never heard o' him. who the fuck is that? King of Zamunda
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| Author: | badrogue17 [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Warren Newson wrote: newper wrote: I'm extremely permissive on roid use. They deserve to go in. To not have them in is to ignore a part of history, IMHO. It's definitely part of history. I just think you have to be careful. Certain guys were great solely because they used roids (Sosa & McGwire), other guys would have been great without the roid use (Bonds & Clemens). There are a lot of assumptions there in when guys began juicing up. I know the conventional wisdom is that Bonds already had Hall of Famer numbers when he began juicing, but do we really know that? He had Hall of Fame numbers when he got in bed with BALCO. We don't really know what he did before that. We also don't know if Frank Thomas is clean. But there's no way I think Sammy Sosa was a better ballplayer than Harold Baines or Andre Dawson or Dave Parker. It's not an easy thing. Even if they let the steroid players in , I still don’t think McGwire is a HOF’er. Edgar Martinez has to be in before him at least . |
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| Author: | Don Tiny [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
Not nearly as funny as Al Jaffee. |
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| Author: | 312player [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
newper wrote: HawaiiYou wrote: no way. they knew what they were doing. they knew they were risking their legacy's. Letting cheaters in that era degrades guys like Frank Thomas who never did roids. Letting in Harold Baines does far more to degrade Frank Thomas than letting in Barry Bonds. I wouldn't call Frank a roid guy . The roid guys are confirmed cheats. |
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| Author: | good dolphin [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
I find Hall of Fame talk mind numbing. Who cares? |
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| Author: | Warren Newson [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Warren Newson wrote: newper wrote: I'm extremely permissive on roid use. They deserve to go in. To not have them in is to ignore a part of history, IMHO. It's definitely part of history. I just think you have to be careful. Certain guys were great solely because they used roids (Sosa & McGwire), other guys would have been great without the roid use (Bonds & Clemens). There are a lot of assumptions there in when guys began juicing up. I know the conventional wisdom is that Bonds already had Hall of Famer numbers when he began juicing, but do we really know that? He had Hall of Fame numbers when he got in bed with BALCO. We don't really know what he did before that. We also don't know if Frank Thomas is clean. But there's no way I think Sammy Sosa was a better ballplayer than Harold Baines or Andre Dawson or Dave Parker. It's not an easy thing. I don't want to read too much into your comments, but it seems like you might be in the Jaffe school, of "we can't tell what happened, so let's just count all the numbers." I think there were certain guys who were rare talents and likely would have made The Hall without the roids (Bonds, Clemens, Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez) some middle of the road guys, where you can't really tell (Bagwell, Piazza, Pudge Rodriguez), and some guys who are only in the conversation because of the roids (Sosa, McWire, Palmiero). It's a subjective call, but Hall voting has always been subjective. |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
good dolphin wrote: I find Hall of Fame talk mind numbing. Who cares? MANY Cubs fans; viewtopic.php?f=33&t=115469
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| Author: | Warren Newson [ Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
Whatever you think of Hall of Fame talk, articles like this one: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and-th ... es-part-1/ where Jaffe highlights good but not great players, are a fun trip down memory lane. |
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| Author: | Bababooey [ Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
The hall has forever been tarnished by the White Sox machine ramming Harold Baines in. |
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| Author: | tommy [ Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Jay Jaffe |
Warren Newson wrote: Whatever you think of Hall of Fame talk, articles like this one: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and-th ... es-part-1/ where Jaffe highlights good but not great players, are a fun trip down memory lane. His piece on Eric Chavez was pretty interesting. |
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