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| Bobby Abreu - HOFer? https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=116104 |
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| Author: | FavreFan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Not a baseball guy but my initial impression was of course not. Solid numbers though. Let's leave Harold Baines out of this |
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| Author: | 312player [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
No chance |
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| Author: | Regular Reader [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
No way Abreu was better than Reggie Smith but James and Kenny are obsessed with walk rates so they're not talking about him. |
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| Author: | Big Chicagoan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Basically Craig Biggio but never reached a needed milestone for induction. If he got 3000 hits, I would say yes. But he fell well short of that. |
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| Author: | Big Chicagoan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Most impressive thing about Abreu was his SB numbers. |
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| Author: | pittmike [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
I would say that I forgot all about him means no. |
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| Author: | Regular Reader [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: No way Abreu was better than Reggie Smith but James and Kenny are obsessed with walk rates so they're not talking about him. Reggie Smith was a vital cog in some very good WS teams for almost(?) a decade? |
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| Author: | FavreFan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Glad to see my initial impression was correct. Although i think RPB is a Kenny guy. Maybe he has an argument. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Big Chicagoan wrote: Most impressive thing about Abreu was his SB numbers. Here's the thing about that. If we're gonna be SABRmetric, we should be SABRmetric. He had a 75% success rate which is considered a statistical wash. So he's basically the same as if he had never attempted a steal at all. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Regular Reader wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: No way Abreu was better than Reggie Smith but James and Kenny are obsessed with walk rates so they're not talking about him. Reggie Smith was a vital cog in some very good WS teams for almost(?) a decade? Underrated player. Probably the third or fourth best switch hitter of all-time. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
FavreFan wrote: Glad to see my initial impression was correct. Although i think RPB is a Kenny guy. Maybe he has an argument. I voted no in Kenny's poll. I was surprised to see James urging people to vote YES. Havent delved into the numbers, but I will say that Abreu's case got better with the Baines thing. |
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| Author: | Keyser Soze [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Regular Reader wrote: Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. Yep |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Regular Reader wrote: Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. You dont hate James, you hate that he revealed you know less than you thought you did. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: No way Abreu was better than Reggie Smith but James and Kenny are obsessed with walk rates so they're not talking about him. You say walk rates like they are insignificant. OBP is the stat most correlated with winning. As boring as they may be #WalkRatesMatter And having a .395 career obp is very impressive. He's not a HoFamer though. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
This is not an argument for Abreu by me but it is interesting Gwynn: .388 OBP, .459 SLG, 132 OPS+, 1,383 R, 1,138 RBI, 319 SB in 10,232 PA Abreu: .395 OBP, .475 SLG, 128 OPS+, 1,453 R, 1,363 RBI, 400 SB in 10,081 PA |
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| Author: | FavreFan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
rogers park bryan wrote: Regular Reader wrote: Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. You dont hate James, you hate that he revealed you know less than you thought you did. 10 more pages thanks to this Stocktonesque assist from RPB |
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| Author: | Regular Reader [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
rogers park bryan wrote: Regular Reader wrote: Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. You dont hate James, you hate that he revealed you know less than you thought you did. No, I just don't think he enjoys the playing of the actual game. Or respects the players as much as he did the stacks of beans he defended in the Iowa cannery he oozed out of. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
FavreFan wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: Regular Reader wrote: Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. You dont hate James, you hate that he revealed you know less than you thought you did. 10 more pages thanks to this Stocktonesque assist from RPB I admit, its a very arrogant post by me, but RR is coming from an arrogant place himself. Lots of people decided they "knew" baseball and when the Sabermetric thing happened and we learned that we were wrong about some things and what they meant or how they related to winnig, a lot of people got upset and rebelled against...the numbers....which is obviously very weird. Are NBA people like this with the value shot (3 pointers and close 2's) revolution? |
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| Author: | Rod [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
rogers park bryan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: No way Abreu was better than Reggie Smith but James and Kenny are obsessed with walk rates so they're not talking about him. You say walk rates like they are insignificant. OBP is the stat most correlated with winning. As boring as they may be #WalkRatesMatter And having a .395 career obp is very impressive. He's not a HoFamer though. Ultimately, either you're scoring a run or driving one in and if not, what did you really accomplish? Sure, letting the next guy come to bat by not making out is something, but it's not something that should sway a man's induction into the Hall of Fame. I do consider Abreu better than Harold Baines though. I just don't think Baines should be the new standard. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
rogers park bryan wrote: FavreFan wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: Regular Reader wrote: Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. You dont hate James, you hate that he revealed you know less than you thought you did. 10 more pages thanks to this Stocktonesque assist from RPB I admit, its a very arrogant post by me, but RR is coming from an arrogant place himself. Lots of people decided they "knew" baseball and when the Sabermetric thing happened and we learned that we were wrong about some things and what they meant or how they related to winnig, a lot of people got upset and rebelled against...the numbers....which is obviously very weird. Are NBA people like this with the value shot (3 pointers and close 2's) revolution? But people generally only make the SABRmetric arguments that suit their case. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: FavreFan wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: Regular Reader wrote: Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. You dont hate James, you hate that he revealed you know less than you thought you did. 10 more pages thanks to this Stocktonesque assist from RPB I admit, its a very arrogant post by me, but RR is coming from an arrogant place himself. Lots of people decided they "knew" baseball and when the Sabermetric thing happened and we learned that we were wrong about some things and what they meant or how they related to winnig, a lot of people got upset and rebelled against...the numbers....which is obviously very weird. Are NBA people like this with the value shot (3 pointers and close 2's) revolution? But people generally only make the SABRmetric arguments that suit their case. Maybe jerks on the internet. I think Kenny and James are consistent. I guarantee neither of them is using stolen bases as the a reason for Abreu to get in. His stats are remarkably similar to Gwynn's though. |
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| Author: | FavreFan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
rogers park bryan wrote: FavreFan wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: Regular Reader wrote: Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. You dont hate James, you hate that he revealed you know less than you thought you did. 10 more pages thanks to this Stocktonesque assist from RPB I admit, its a very arrogant post by me, but RR is coming from an arrogant place himself. Lots of people decided they "knew" baseball and when the Sabermetric thing happened and we learned that we were wrong about some things and what they meant or how they related to winnig, a lot of people got upset and rebelled against...the numbers....which is obviously very weird. Are NBA people like this with the value shot (3 pointers and close 2's) revolution? They are but I think that's more an aesthetics thing than arguing the shots aren't as valuable as the numbers say they are, and I get the aesthetics argument. James Harden isn't exactly a fun player to watch play. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
FavreFan wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: FavreFan wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: Regular Reader wrote: Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. You dont hate James, you hate that he revealed you know less than you thought you did. 10 more pages thanks to this Stocktonesque assist from RPB I admit, its a very arrogant post by me, but RR is coming from an arrogant place himself. Lots of people decided they "knew" baseball and when the Sabermetric thing happened and we learned that we were wrong about some things and what they meant or how they related to winnig, a lot of people got upset and rebelled against...the numbers....which is obviously very weird. Are NBA people like this with the value shot (3 pointers and close 2's) revolution? They are but I think that's more an aesthetics thing than arguing the shots aren't as valuable as the numbers say they are, and I get the aesthetics argument. James Harden isn't exactly a fun player to watch play. Same. I dont argue when JORR says walks have made the game boring. But that doesnt mean the guys reporting the walk numbers are less legit. |
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| Author: | Jaw Breaker [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
FavreFan wrote: I get the aesthetics argument. James Harden isn't exactly a fun player to watch play. The same way Rizzo and Bryant aren't fun to watch trying to coax a walk. I don't fault Bill James for advocating for players who increase a team's chance of winning, despite how ugly or unimpressive they appear. {Edit} what RPB said... |
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| Author: | Regular Reader [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
rogers park bryan wrote: FavreFan wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: Regular Reader wrote: Further confirmation of my thought that Bill James needs to go away. Now. You dont hate James, you hate that he revealed you know less than you thought you did. 10 more pages thanks to this Stocktonesque assist from RPB I admit, its a very arrogant post by me, but RR is coming from an arrogant place himself. Lots of people decided they "knew" baseball and when the Sabermetric thing happened and we learned that we were wrong about some things and what they meant or how they related to winnig, a lot of people got upset and rebelled against...the numbers....which is obviously very weird. This may surprise you, but often I think highly of his numbers. But his (& guys like Brian Kenny's) overbearance(?) on them makes them and their slanted argument bases cold, joyless and uninteresting. And not always credible. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
rogers park bryan wrote: This is not an argument for Abreu by me but it is interesting Gwynn: .388 OBP, .459 SLG, 132 OPS+, 1,383 R, 1,138 RBI, 319 SB in 10,232 PA Abreu: .395 OBP, .475 SLG, 128 OPS+, 1,453 R, 1,363 RBI, 400 SB in 10,081 PA Those are all good numbers. But a lot of guys have them. There is only one number in all the stats of both Abreu and Gwynn that is ultra-elite, and that is Gwynn's .338 batting average. That's No. 18 all-time. And the only guy in the top 30 who played later than the 30s I believe was Stan Musial whose career ended in the early 60s. That's fame. |
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| Author: | Regular Reader [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Jaw Breaker wrote: FavreFan wrote: I get the aesthetics argument. James Harden isn't exactly a fun player to watch play. The same way Rizzo and Bryant aren't fun to watch trying to coax a walk. I don't fault Bill James for advocating for players who increase a team's chance of winning, despite how ugly or unimpressive they appear. True, but don't tell me that a guy like Brett Butler wasn't as good of a player as he appeared. Bunts & steals included. |
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| Author: | FavreFan [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
Regular Reader wrote: Jaw Breaker wrote: FavreFan wrote: I get the aesthetics argument. James Harden isn't exactly a fun player to watch play. The same way Rizzo and Bryant aren't fun to watch trying to coax a walk. I don't fault Bill James for advocating for players who increase a team's chance of winning, despite how ugly or unimpressive they appear. True, but don't tell me that a guy like Brett Butler wasn't as good of a player as he appeared. Bunts & steals included. I like guys that say "fuck the numbers, I'm playing to my strengths". DeMar DeRozan is having a pretty fun year |
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| Author: | Regular Reader [ Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bobby Abreu - HOFer? |
FavreFan wrote: Regular Reader wrote: Jaw Breaker wrote: FavreFan wrote: I get the aesthetics argument. James Harden isn't exactly a fun player to watch play. The same way Rizzo and Bryant aren't fun to watch trying to coax a walk. I don't fault Bill James for advocating for players who increase a team's chance of winning, despite how ugly or unimpressive they appear. True, but don't tell me that a guy like Brett Butler wasn't as good of a player as he appeared. Bunts & steals included. I like guys that say "fuck the numbers, I'm playing to my strengths". DeMar DeRozan is having a pretty fun year Exactly! And I hate watching Harden play myself. |
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