That one is loooooooonng gone!
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| Piazza - First Ballot? https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=21281 |
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| Author: | walkrman5 [ Thu May 22, 2008 9:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Piazza - First Ballot? |
Heard some dude (Tim Kurkjian?) on ESPN say that Piazza was a lock to be a first ballot hall of famer. After I heard his stats...I guess so, but my first reaction / thought was "no way". he did play in the "Roid Era" |
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| Author: | RFDC [ Thu May 22, 2008 10:45 pm ] |
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he isnt a first ballot guy to me. |
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| Author: | Hawkeye Vince [ Fri May 23, 2008 8:51 am ] |
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Piazza is a sure hall of famer, but I don't think it happens on the first ballot. Fisk took 2 years, Gary Carter took 6 years. Johnny Bench was the last first ballot hall of famer. While his numbers compare favorably, he doesn't have the reputation of Bench. He gets in the Hall in 2-3 years. |
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| Author: | Mustang Rob [ Fri May 23, 2008 9:56 am ] |
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Yes he is a first ballot guy. His numbers are better than Carter & Fisk. Also, he'll be on the same ballot with: Barry, Sammy & Roger - and there hasn't been a hint of anything about Piazza being dirty, so if the writers want to continue sending the message, it would be Mike in, the rest out. |
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| Author: | Krazy Ivan [ Fri May 23, 2008 10:28 am ] |
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How long until he releases his tell all book about being the first Gay HOF catcher? |
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| Author: | Mustang Rob [ Fri May 23, 2008 10:45 am ] |
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Krazy Ivan wrote: How long until he releases his tell all book about being the first Gay HOF catcher?
Why? Are all the other gay HOF'ers pitchers??? |
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| Author: | good dolphin [ Fri May 23, 2008 11:29 am ] |
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Krazy Ivan wrote: How long until he releases his tell all book about being the first Gay HOF catcher?
Bench would be before him in this category as well...i'm not sayin, i'm just sayin. |
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| Author: | Hawkeye Vince [ Fri May 23, 2008 1:51 pm ] |
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Next few years of first year eligible players. other than Rickey next year I dont see alot of sure things until that 2013 class. 2009: Steve Avery, Jay Bell, Mike Bordick, John Burkett, David Cone, Ron Gant, Mark Grace, Rickey Henderson, Todd Hundley, Orlando Merced, Charles Nagy, Denny Neagle, Jesse Orosco, Dean Palmer, Dan Plesac, Rick Reed, Greg Vaughn, Mo Vaughn, Matt Williams 2010: Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Dave Burba, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, Todd Zeile 2011: Wilson Alvarez, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, Cal Eldred, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Bobby Higginson, Charles Johnson, Al Leiter, Tino Martinez, Raul Mondesi, Jose Offerman, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Paul Quantrill, Steve Reed, Kirk Rueter, Rey Sanchez, Benito Santiago, B.J. Surhoff, Ugueth Urbina, Ismael Valdez, Larry Walker, Dan Wilson 2012: Pedro Astacio, David Bell, Jeromy Burnitz, Vinny Castilla, Scott Erickson, Carl Everett, Jeff Fassero, Alex S. Gonzalez, Danny Graves, Rick Helling, Dustin Hermanson, Jose Hernandez, Brian Jordan, Matt Lawton, Bill Mueller, Terry Mulholland, Jeff Nelson, Phil Nevin, Brad Radke, Joe Randa, Tim Salmon, Ruben Sierra, J.T. Snow, Jose Vizcaino, Bernie Williams, Eric Young 2013: Sandy Alomar Jr., Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Jeff Cirillo, Royce Clayton, Roger Clemens, Jeff Conine, Steve Finley, Julio Franco, Shawn Green, Ryan Klesko, Mike Lieberthal, Kenny Lofton, Jose Mesa, Damian Miller, Eric Milton, Russ Ortiz, Neifi Perez, Mike Piazza, Reggie Sanders, Aaron Sele, Mike Stanton, Todd Walker, David Wells, Rondell White, Bob Wickman, Woody Williams |
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| Author: | Mustang Rob [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:21 pm ] |
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My take from that list. The no doubters are: 2009 Rickey 2010 Robbie Alomar 2011 Bagwell 2012 nobody 2013 Biggio, Piazza The strong maybe's 2010 Larkin & McGriff The Juicers who should make the HOF eventually: 2011 Palmeiro 2013 Bonds, Clemens |
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| Author: | trickybeck [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:31 pm ] |
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Quote: My take from that list.
The no doubters are: 2009 Rickey 2010 Robbie Alomar 2011 Bagwell 2012 nobody 2013 Biggio, Piazza The strong maybe's 2010 Larkin & McGriff The Juicers who should make the HOF eventually: 2011 Palmeiro 2013 Bonds, Clemens Without analyzing the stats yet, I'd put Larkin in but not McGriff. And you left out Larry Walker. |
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| Author: | Mustang Rob [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:38 pm ] |
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trickybeck wrote: Quote: My take from that list. The no doubters are: 2009 Rickey 2010 Robbie Alomar 2011 Bagwell 2012 nobody 2013 Biggio, Piazza The strong maybe's 2010 Larkin & McGriff The Juicers who should make the HOF eventually: 2011 Palmeiro 2013 Bonds, Clemens Without analyzing the stats yet, I'd put Larkin in but not McGriff. And you left out Larry Walker. That's cause McGriff's stats dwarf Walker. Crime Dog has 400 more hits, 100 more homers & 200 more RBI. |
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| Author: | Colonel Angus [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:42 pm ] |
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Palmeiro only makes the Fool around with your teammates' wives Hall of Fame. As for Mark Grace, he'll be the next-gen Santo. Cub fans will bang the drum for him, stating he lead the NL in hits in the '90s, and he won't get in. |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:43 pm ] |
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Plus McGriff always knew how many outs there were. |
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| Author: | Mustang Rob [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:48 pm ] |
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Frank Coztansa wrote: Plus McGriff always knew how many outs there were.
It's those Tom Emanski fundementals. |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Fri May 23, 2008 2:50 pm ] |
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That one is loooooooonng gone!
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| Author: | SHARK [ Fri May 23, 2008 3:13 pm ] |
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Mike Piazza is NOT a first ballot Hall-of-Famer, let alone a second or third ballot! While his offensive stats appear good enough to eventually warrant admission into Cooperstown, the book against Piazza is that he was not a good defensive catcher and wasn't nearly as good working with a pitching staff. I'll be more interested to see if the recent steroid & BALCO allegiations against Barry Bonds & Roger Clemens will be enough to keep those two out on their first year of eligibility come 2013, which is when all of them are eligible on the first ballot... |
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| Author: | trickybeck [ Fri May 23, 2008 3:15 pm ] |
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Mustang Rob wrote: trickybeck wrote: And you left out Larry Walker. That's cause McGriff's stats dwarf Walker. Crime Dog has 400 more hits, 100 more homers & 200 more RBI. Uhhh... Larry Walker's career OPS is .965. That's 19th best of all time. He's also got 7 Gold Gloves. 1 MVP 3 Batting Titles And 230 Stolen Bases, just for kicks. |
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| Author: | Mustang Rob [ Fri May 23, 2008 3:40 pm ] |
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SHARK1104 wrote: Mike Piazza is NOT a first ballot Hall-of-Famer, let alone a second or third ballot! While his offensive stats appear good enough to eventually warrant admission into Cooperstown, the book against Piazza is that he was not a good defensive catcher and wasn't nearly as good working with a pitching staff. I'll be more interested to see if the recent steroid & BALCO allegiations against Barry Bonds & Roger Clemens will be enough to keep those two out on their first year of eligibility come 2013, which is when all of them are eligible on the first ballot...
Complete bullshit. His catcher ERA is better than the defensive superstars of the period Santiago & Pudge Rodriguez. His pitchers loved throwing to him because he generated runs for them, which allowed them to be aggressive on the mound. His only major wort is that he could not throw runners out. He should be a first ballot HOF'er and will be the 2nd best catcher in the HOF once he gets in http://members.tripod.com/bb_catchers/c ... /cera1.htm |
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| Author: | Mustang Rob [ Fri May 23, 2008 3:50 pm ] |
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trickybeck wrote: Mustang Rob wrote: trickybeck wrote: And you left out Larry Walker. That's cause McGriff's stats dwarf Walker. Crime Dog has 400 more hits, 100 more homers & 200 more RBI. Uhhh... Larry Walker's career OPS is .965. That's 19th best [i]of all time[/i]. He's also got 7 Gold Gloves. 1 MVP 3 Batting Titles And 230 Stolen Bases, just for kicks. COLO RADO Clap, Clap, Clappidy, Clap. His career OPS. in Montreal was around .860 and full season in St. Lou produced .886. Career OPS. Home 1.068 Away .865 Hmm....... |
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| Author: | man of few opinions [ Fri May 23, 2008 3:55 pm ] |
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piazza is definitely a hall of famer. this thread touches on one of my pet peeves: "first ballot hall of fame", "2nd ballot hall of fame", etc. voters for the hall of fame who purposely DONT vote a guy into the hall of fame because he feels he doesnt deserve to be in right away are asshats in my most humble opinion. either the guy deserves to be in, or he doesnt. a player who deserves to get in should not have to wait "x" number of years because of some unwritten code of idiocy created by writers. these writers think they are so fucking important with the votes, they like wielding some sort of power, it makes them feel important. mike piazza should clearly be in the hall of fame, and should get the needed amount of votes, and be in the hall of fame. he wont, because writers will say "johnny bench got in on the first ballot, and he isnt as good as johnny bench". retarded thinking. they BOTH belong in the hall of fame, so what is the problem? piazza getting in on a first ballot is going to hurt johnny bench's psyche? johnny bench shouldnt give a shit. there will always be borderline guys to get in, guys who are right on the fringe, but to hold out a deserving player for absolutely no reason is stupid. |
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| Author: | trickybeck [ Fri May 23, 2008 4:14 pm ] |
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Mustang Rob wrote: COLO
RADO Clap, Clap, Clappidy, Clap. His career OPS. in Montreal was around .860 and full season in St. Lou produced .886. Career OPS. Home 1.068 Away .865 Hmm....... Okay, his league-adjusted, park-adjusted OPS (*OPS+) is 140, 73rd all-time. Still beats out McGriff who has 134, 111th all time. He was a better pure hitter, a better fielder, and had better speed. McGriff played a few more seasons and racked up more career totals, great. |
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| Author: | Mustang Rob [ Fri May 23, 2008 9:56 pm ] |
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trickybeck wrote: Mustang Rob wrote: COLO RADO Clap, Clap, Clappidy, Clap. His career OPS. in Montreal was around .860 and full season in St. Lou produced .886. Career OPS. Home 1.068 Away .865 Hmm....... Okay, his league-adjusted, park-adjusted OPS (*OPS+) is 140, 73rd all-time. Still beats out McGriff who has 134, 111th all time. He was a better pure hitter, a better fielder, and had better speed. McGriff played a few more seasons and racked up more career totals, great. Uhm? Not to nitpick, trickybeck, but the HOF IS a Career Honor, so the length of time one played is of major importance - just ask Jim Rice. Fred McGriff belongs in the conversation with the other HOF worthy 1B's of the 90's - Frank Thomas, Jim Thome & Jeff Bagwell. Personally, I loved Walker when he played, but in my mind he will be the first player to have his case hurt by the Colorado thin air. |
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| Author: | man of few opinions [ Sat May 24, 2008 1:19 am ] |
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Mustang Rob wrote: Personally, I loved Walker when he played, but in my mind he will be the first player to have his case hurt by the Colorado thin air.
galarraga, burks, vinny castilla and dante bichette might have something to say about that! |
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| Author: | trickybeck [ Sat May 24, 2008 1:47 am ] |
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Mustang Rob wrote: Fred McGriff belongs in the conversation with the other HOF worthy 1B's of the 90's - Frank Thomas, Jim Thome & Jeff Bagwell.
I would never put McGriff in any conversation with Frank Thomas, so I guess I won't bother continuing the argument. |
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| Author: | Mustang Rob [ Sat May 24, 2008 9:50 am ] |
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trickybeck wrote: Mustang Rob wrote: Fred McGriff belongs in the conversation with the other HOF worthy 1B's of the 90's - Frank Thomas, Jim Thome & Jeff Bagwell. I would never put McGriff in any conversation with Frank Thomas, so I guess I won't bother continuing the argument. I agree with you. A player who got 60% of his AB's at DH shouldn't ever be compared to a full time fist baseman. Unfortunately, the fine folks at Baseball reference don't know what they are doing. http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/ ... ed+McGriff Quote: Fred McGriff Similar Players
Similar Batters Compare Stats Willie McCovey (887) * Gary Sheffield (885) Willie Stargell (875) * Jeff Bagwell (865) Frank Thomas (857) Billy Williams (851) * Andres Galarraga (850) Eddie Mathews (827) * Ernie Banks (819) * Jim Thome (819) |
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| Author: | Irish Boy [ Sat May 24, 2008 1:01 pm ] |
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Piazza wasn't a huge liability behind the plate until the end; in the 90s he was an adequate, if not spectacular, defensive catcher. Combine that with being the most productive full-time catcher of all time and I think it's pretty clear he's in. |
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