Re: the greatest Chicago baseball player (hitter) over the past forty years. Waddle hinted tonight on the Final Word that Sandberg may have the edge over the Thomas. But at first glance I'm not so sure by any stretch of the imagination...

_________________

Thomas was by far the better offensive player. Big Hurt numbers are great and comparable to some of the all time greats whereas Ryno's are great for a 2nd baseman

_________________
"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."

Ryno

_________________
That's my purse! I don't know you!

The only possible defense for Waddle was his claiming the 9 (I believe) Gold Gloves by Sandberg supposedly made him the better overall player. But even if taken on face value, that doesn't IMO make up for the gulf in the offensive stats.

_________________

This topic is not worthy of debate.

_________________
"All crowds boycotting football games shouldn't care who sings or takes a knee because they aren't watching." - Nas

NO!

You're right, of course. I was just trying to play the bookie role and see if I could draw two equal groups of opposing arguments. But alas, it does seem a lopsided argument at best.

_________________

Right. As I said yesterday, Frank was the better hitter, Ryno was the better Baseball player.

_________________
CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

Scorehead,

You have been making WAY too much sense lately. You're scaring me.

_________________

I call bullshit on the "baseball player" argument. Hitting's the most important thing anyone does on a baseball field other than pitching. Fielding is way overrated thanks to Web Gems and the rage about 'roids.

The only scenario where "baseball player" vs. "hitter" carries any validity whatsoever is when you're comparing Ted Williams and Willie Mays or Ted Williams and Babe Ruth.

Also

_________________

Never proven or admitted steroid use (just like Frank has not!!!),I go with Sammy Sosa!



http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... html?redir

_________________
favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

So it's getting held against Frank Thomas that he wasn't good enough defensively to play 2nd base? Would we do the same for a catcher or a pitcher?

You judge them by the position they played and how they did it. If you do that, Frank Thomas is the easy answer.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

i'm a baseball purist. sandberg is in my top 3 favorites of all time. beautiful to watch. unfortunately beauty doesn't win games. knocking the shit out of the ball does.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Hitter: Frank Thomas is light years ahead of anybody else

_________________

Career Wins Above Replacement: (factors in hitting, base running and fielding):

Thomas- 75.9

Sandberg- 61.8

Frank was such a dominating hitter that his hitting alone makes him (far) more valuable than other more 'complete' players.

Sandberg was a very timid hitter.

_________________

Hitter: Frank Thomas.
Baseball Player: Ryne Sandberg.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

So you are telling me that if you had to pick between Ryne Sandberg and Frank Thomas in their prime that you'd pick Sandberg?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Well that would depend, BR. Do I need someone who can play a position to the tune of 9 gold gloves? Or, does my team need a DH? Do I need a guy who's going to be a 5 tool player? Frank Thomas would never have survived in the NL. That is clear as fuck. Ryno could have.
So, clarify your question? What league is my team in? Do I need an infielder? Do I need a DH?
These are two completely different players. It's like asking me, do I need a Prius or do I need a F150? Well, wouldn't that depend on what I need it for?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Overall its Frank but I dont think its as big a disparity as some arw making it out to be. The defense and baserunning make up for a good portion of the offensive gap. Similiar question: Who was more valuable to the 90s Indians Alomar or Thome?

Review above.

If you all hate statistics so much come up with another way of measuring players other than 'gut feeling' and hypothetical fantasy GM scenarios.

_________________

No shit. What more do you need to understand?

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

No. It really wouldn't. The only somewhat relevant question is the DH one but Thomas could play 1st base in the NL no problem. The best hitter right now plays in the NL. In the AL, he'd probably DH more often.

The fact that Thomas couldn't play second base doesn't hurt him since you don't need him to do that. He couldn't pitch either but I'm not saying Zambrano is a better player because he can pitch and can hit decently.

For the sake of argument though, since it does exist currently, let's say you are an American League team and you have a choice of Frank Thomas in his prime or Ryne Sandberg. You have needs at each position. You can only afford one player. You'll have to find a replacement. Do you want Frank Thomas or Ryne Sandberg? Is it going to be easier to find a substitute for Sandberg or Thomas?

I take Frank Thomas without even thinking twice. I can find a decent enough fielder to give me an acceptable level of defense but I don't think I'm finding anyone who gives me that kind of power.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Now go stand in the stupid line with Scorehead and Drop In.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Bravo, BR. That's exactly the philosophy of Wins Above Replacement (see Keyser Soze's post) and it's really the only "fantasy GM scenario" that matters here.

_________________

In these fantasy GM types that are being presented, if you want to win you would take Frank Thomas 100% of the time.

_________________

I said Frank was better 14 wins better over a career isnt huge. I just dont think the question is as ridiculous as some.

Cubbie fans.....who would you rather have...Andre Dawson or Sandberg?

_________________

It is beacuse many of you (Cubs fans, no surprise) are failing to recognize just how dominating a hitter that Big Frank was. He was a DH a lot, and when he did play the field he certainly was no more than adequate. Despite that, he still was able to do this:

So, Ryno was this 5 tool Godsend and all Frank Thomas did was slug. Yet, there it is in black and white 76 to 62.

_________________

I don't deny that Frank was the better hitter, but Ryno's got him beat in the other 4 tools.
I don't get this direct comparison anyhow. Did Frank Thomas have to endure the wear and tear of daily field play that Ryno did? Nope. How would Sandberg be as a hitter if he was a pure DH?
They were completely different players, filling completely different roles. This question is actually kind of stupid. Who's a better BASEBALL player? I can't see any answer other than Sandberg. Who's a better HITTER is no doubt Thomas.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014