newper wrote:
This topic is not worthy of debate.
You're right, of course. I was just trying to play the bookie role and see if I could draw two equal groups of opposing arguments. But alas, it does seem a lopsided argument at best.
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| Ryno vs. The Big Hurt https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=42927 |
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| Author: | CSFMB Guy [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Re: the greatest Chicago baseball player (hitter) over the past forty years. Waddle hinted tonight on the Final Word that Sandberg may have the edge over the Thomas. But at first glance I'm not so sure by any stretch of the imagination... |
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| Author: | Mr. Hernandez [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Thomas was by far the better offensive player. Big Hurt numbers are great and comparable to some of the all time greats whereas Ryno's are great for a 2nd baseman |
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| Author: | Urlacher's missing neck [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Ryno |
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| Author: | CSFMB Guy [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
The only possible defense for Waddle was his claiming the 9 (I believe) Gold Gloves by Sandberg supposedly made him the better overall player. But even if taken on face value, that doesn't IMO make up for the gulf in the offensive stats. |
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| Author: | newper [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
This topic is not worthy of debate. |
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| Author: | Chilli Palmer [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
NO! |
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| Author: | CSFMB Guy [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
newper wrote: This topic is not worthy of debate. You're right, of course. I was just trying to play the bookie role and see if I could draw two equal groups of opposing arguments. But alas, it does seem a lopsided argument at best.
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| Author: | Scorehead [ Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
newper wrote: This topic is not worthy of debate. Right. As I said yesterday, Frank was the better hitter, Ryno was the better Baseball player. |
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| Author: | Drop In [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Scorehead wrote: newper wrote: This topic is not worthy of debate. Right. As I said yesterday, Frank was the better hitter, Ryno was the better Baseball player. Scorehead, You have been making WAY too much sense lately. You're scaring me. |
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| Author: | suckers playground [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
I call bullshit on the "baseball player" argument. Hitting's the most important thing anyone does on a baseball field other than pitching. Fielding is way overrated thanks to Web Gems and the rage about 'roids. The only scenario where "baseball player" vs. "hitter" carries any validity whatsoever is when you're comparing Ted Williams and Willie Mays or Ted Williams and Babe Ruth. Also 
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| Author: | jimmypasta [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Never proven or admitted steroid use (just like Frank has not!!!),I go with Sammy Sosa! http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... html?redir |
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| Author: | Brick [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
So it's getting held against Frank Thomas that he wasn't good enough defensively to play 2nd base? Would we do the same for a catcher or a pitcher? You judge them by the position they played and how they did it. If you do that, Frank Thomas is the easy answer. |
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| Author: | Hatchetman [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
i'm a baseball purist. sandberg is in my top 3 favorites of all time. beautiful to watch. unfortunately beauty doesn't win games. knocking the shit out of the ball does. |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
CSFMB Guy wrote: Re: the greatest Chicago baseball player (hitter) over the past forty years. Hitter: Frank Thomas is light years ahead of anybody else |
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| Author: | Keyser Soze [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Career Wins Above Replacement: (factors in hitting, base running and fielding): Thomas- 75.9 Sandberg- 61.8 Frank was such a dominating hitter that his hitting alone makes him (far) more valuable than other more 'complete' players. |
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| Author: | Gloopan Kuratz [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Hatchetman wrote: i'm a baseball purist. sandberg is in my top 3 favorites of all time. beautiful to watch. unfortunately beauty doesn't win games. knocking the shit out of the ball does. Sandberg was a very timid hitter. |
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| Author: | Darkside [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Hitter: Frank Thomas. Baseball Player: Ryne Sandberg. |
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| Author: | Brick [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Darkside wrote: Hitter: Frank Thomas. So you are telling me that if you had to pick between Ryne Sandberg and Frank Thomas in their prime that you'd pick Sandberg?
Baseball Player: Ryne Sandberg. |
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| Author: | Darkside [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Boilermaker Rick wrote: Darkside wrote: Hitter: Frank Thomas. So you are telling me that if you had to pick between Ryne Sandberg and Frank Thomas in their prime that you'd pick Sandberg?Baseball Player: Ryne Sandberg. Well that would depend, BR. Do I need someone who can play a position to the tune of 9 gold gloves? Or, does my team need a DH? Do I need a guy who's going to be a 5 tool player? Frank Thomas would never have survived in the NL. That is clear as fuck. Ryno could have. So, clarify your question? What league is my team in? Do I need an infielder? Do I need a DH? These are two completely different players. It's like asking me, do I need a Prius or do I need a F150? Well, wouldn't that depend on what I need it for? |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Overall its Frank but I dont think its as big a disparity as some arw making it out to be. The defense and baserunning make up for a good portion of the offensive gap. Similiar question: Who was more valuable to the 90s Indians Alomar or Thome? |
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| Author: | suckers playground [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Keyser Soze wrote: Career Wins Above Replacement: (factors in hitting, base running and fielding): Thomas- 75.9 Sandberg- 61.8 Frank was such a dominating hitter that his hitting alone makes him (far) more valuable than other more 'complete' players. Review above. If you all hate statistics so much come up with another way of measuring players other than 'gut feeling' and hypothetical fantasy GM scenarios. |
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| Author: | Hatchetman [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
suckers playground wrote: Do you guys need glasses? No shit. What more do you need to understand? |
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| Author: | Brick [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Darkside wrote: Boilermaker Rick wrote: Darkside wrote: Hitter: Frank Thomas. So you are telling me that if you had to pick between Ryne Sandberg and Frank Thomas in their prime that you'd pick Sandberg?Baseball Player: Ryne Sandberg. Well that would depend, BR. Do I need someone who can play a position to the tune of 9 gold gloves? Or, does my team need a DH? Do I need a guy who's going to be a 5 tool player? Frank Thomas would never have survived in the NL. That is clear as fuck. Ryno could have. So, clarify your question? What league is my team in? Do I need an infielder? Do I need a DH? These are two completely different players. It's like asking me, do I need a Prius or do I need a F150? Well, wouldn't that depend on what I need it for? The fact that Thomas couldn't play second base doesn't hurt him since you don't need him to do that. He couldn't pitch either but I'm not saying Zambrano is a better player because he can pitch and can hit decently. For the sake of argument though, since it does exist currently, let's say you are an American League team and you have a choice of Frank Thomas in his prime or Ryne Sandberg. You have needs at each position. You can only afford one player. You'll have to find a replacement. Do you want Frank Thomas or Ryne Sandberg? Is it going to be easier to find a substitute for Sandberg or Thomas? I take Frank Thomas without even thinking twice. I can find a decent enough fielder to give me an acceptable level of defense but I don't think I'm finding anyone who gives me that kind of power. |
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| Author: | good dolphin [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Darkside wrote: Boilermaker Rick wrote: Darkside wrote: Hitter: Frank Thomas. So you are telling me that if you had to pick between Ryne Sandberg and Frank Thomas in their prime that you'd pick Sandberg?Baseball Player: Ryne Sandberg. Well that would depend, BR. Do I need someone who can play a position to the tune of 9 gold gloves? Or, does my team need a DH? Do I need a guy who's going to be a 5 tool player? Frank Thomas would never have survived in the NL. That is clear as fuck. Ryno could have. So, clarify your question? What league is my team in? Do I need an infielder? Do I need a DH? These are two completely different players. It's like asking me, do I need a Prius or do I need a F150? Well, wouldn't that depend on what I need it for? Now go stand in the stupid line with Scorehead and Drop In. |
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| Author: | suckers playground [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Bravo, BR. That's exactly the philosophy of Wins Above Replacement (see Keyser Soze's post) and it's really the only "fantasy GM scenario" that matters here. |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
In these fantasy GM types that are being presented, if you want to win you would take Frank Thomas 100% of the time. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
suckers playground wrote: Keyser Soze wrote: Career Wins Above Replacement: (factors in hitting, base running and fielding): Thomas- 75.9 Sandberg- 61.8 Frank was such a dominating hitter that his hitting alone makes him (far) more valuable than other more 'complete' players. Review above. If you all hate statistics so much come up with another way of measuring players other than 'gut feeling' and hypothetical fantasy GM scenarios. I said Frank was better 14 wins better over a career isnt huge. I just dont think the question is as ridiculous as some. |
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| Author: | Gloopan Kuratz [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
Cubbie fans.....who would you rather have...Andre Dawson or Sandberg? |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
It is beacuse many of you (Cubs fans, no surprise) are failing to recognize just how dominating a hitter that Big Frank was. He was a DH a lot, and when he did play the field he certainly was no more than adequate. Despite that, he still was able to do this: Keyser Soze wrote: Career Wins Above Replacement: (factors in hitting, base running and fielding): Thomas- 75.9 Sandberg- 61.8 Frank was such a dominating hitter that his hitting alone makes him (far) more valuable than other more 'complete' players. So, Ryno was this 5 tool Godsend and all Frank Thomas did was slug. Yet, there it is in black and white 76 to 62. |
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| Author: | Darkside [ Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ryno vs. The Big Hurt |
I don't deny that Frank was the better hitter, but Ryno's got him beat in the other 4 tools. I don't get this direct comparison anyhow. Did Frank Thomas have to endure the wear and tear of daily field play that Ryno did? Nope. How would Sandberg be as a hitter if he was a pure DH? They were completely different players, filling completely different roles. This question is actually kind of stupid. Who's a better BASEBALL player? I can't see any answer other than Sandberg. Who's a better HITTER is no doubt Thomas. |
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