Chicago Fanatics Message Board :: View topic - How do the Cardinals have so much success?

By not rushing anyone to the majors

Also, chicken and egg comes into play since having good players at the major league level stops you from rushing players

By not rushing anyone to the majors

Allen Craig
David Freese
John Jay
Jaime Garcia
Adam Wainwright
Matt Carpenter

All of them were at least 24 in their rookie year.

It's just a hypothesis right now....but I think we may have something

Also, chicken and egg comes into play since having good players at the major league level stops you from rushing players

But still....

rogers park bryan wrote:

By not rushing anyone to the majors

Also, chicken and egg comes into play since having good players at the major league level stops you from rushing players

See also: Detroit Red Wings, who park their prospects in Grand Rapids till they're like 25, which is made easy by having Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and till now Lidstrom

Wish the cubs were run like the Cards.

312player wrote:

Wish the cubs were run like the Cards.

They're being run better. Like the Red Sox.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

312player wrote:

Wish the cubs were run like the Cards.

They're being run better. Like the Red Sox.

The Red Sox are currently being run better?

They traded away half their team and are about to trade for a manager

rogers park bryan wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

312player wrote:

Wish the cubs were run like the Cards.

They're being run better. Like the Red Sox.

The Red Sox are currently being run better?

They traded away half their team and are about to trade for a manager

Right, but the guy who put them in that shape is now running the Cubs. I just think Theo Epstein is a con man. No different than a hundred other guys who think they're better than anyone else at running a ballclub.

I prefer that over guys who think they are worse than other people running ball clubs.

Bucky Chris wrote:

I prefer that over guys who think they are worse than other people running ball clubs.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Bucky Chris wrote:

I prefer that over guys who think they are worse than other people running ball clubs.

Yea I mean, I don't get your premise. Is it that you think Theo is cocky? To be honest, I don't get that vibe from him. Others project a lot of stuff on him about him being a savior, etc. But that's not him. That's other people.

Bucky Chris wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Bucky Chris wrote:

I prefer that over guys who think they are worse than other people running ball clubs.

What I mean is, I think he's a silverspoon who got opportunities more qualified guys haven't. He did well in Boston, but I think that has caused him to be arrogant. If he gets run out of Chicago, he's just another goof. He wins a World Series here, he's king and I'm wrong.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

312player wrote:

Wish the cubs were run like the Cards.

They're being run better. Like the Red Sox.

The Red Sox are currently being run better?

They traded away half their team and are about to trade for a manager

rogers park bryan wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

312player wrote:

Wish the cubs were run like the Cards.

They're being run better. Like the Red Sox.

The Red Sox are currently being run better?

They traded away half their team and are about to trade for a manager

Sounds like the Cubs.

Thats what I find funny that never really gets mentioned about Theo, except by JORR a couple times. They had to sell off almost $300 million of bad contracts Theo was responsible for. They had to completely gut their team and have their worst season in a really long time, because of what Theo did to that team. And nobody is talking about it.

Interesting thing to watch will be to see who wins a WS next, the Cubs or Red Sox now. They are in similar positions with similar resources.

People in Boston talk about it

Bucky Chris wrote:

People in Boston talk about it

And even Theo has said he made big mistakes at the end, over-investing in Free Agents.

Bucky Chris wrote:

People in Boston talk about it

Of course they do. They couldn't wait for Theo to leave. I was referring to basically every Cubs fan except Jimmypasta.

How do the Cardinals have so much success?

FavreFan wrote:

Bucky Chris wrote:

People in Boston talk about it

Of course they do. They couldn't wait for Theo to leave. I was referring to basically every Cubs fan except Jimmypasta.

Yea well again, just proving my point. Most people react to Theo as if he is responsible for the perceptions fans put on him. JORR was making statements specifically about Theo, so I was curious if he was basing that off reality, or taking what Cubs fans say and projecting that on Theo.

Bucky Chris wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Bucky Chris wrote:

People in Boston talk about it

Of course they do. They couldn't wait for Theo to leave. I was referring to basically every Cubs fan except Jimmypasta.

Yeah, I dont know and dont care how arrogant Theo is. My only point is that 2007 was 5 years ago and Im not sure if he's a good GM or not. There's certainly strong evidence from the last three years that he is not, but the concensus among Cubs fans seems to be that he's easily a top 5 GM.

Author:	rogers park bryan [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:	How do the Cardinals have so much success?
By not rushing anyone to the majors Allen Craig David Freese John Jay Jaime Garcia Adam Wainwright Matt Carpenter All of them were at least 24 in their rookie year. It's just a hypothesis right now....but I think we may have something Also, chicken and egg comes into play since having good players at the major league level stops you from rushing players But still....

Author:	Curious Hair [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
rogers park bryan wrote: By not rushing anyone to the majors Also, chicken and egg comes into play since having good players at the major league level stops you from rushing players See also: Detroit Red Wings, who park their prospects in Grand Rapids till they're like 25, which is made easy by having Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and till now Lidstrom

Author:	Phil McCracken [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
rogers park bryan wrote: By not rushing anyone to the majors Allen Craig David Freese John Jay Jaime Garcia Adam Wainwright Matt Carpenter All of them were at least 24 in their rookie year. It's just a hypothesis right now....but I think we may have something Also, chicken and egg comes into play since having good players at the major league level stops you from rushing players But still.... So the Cubs are onto something with Bryan LaHair then....

Author:	rogers park bryan [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
I wonder what would have happened to Corey Patterson and Felix Pie if they werent rushed

Author:	jimmypasta [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
How about Bret Jackson & Josh Vitters? I think they were rushed into the decision of playing baseball

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Author:	good dolphin [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Curious Hair wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: By not rushing anyone to the majors Also, chicken and egg comes into play since having good players at the major league level stops you from rushing players See also: Detroit Red Wings, who park their prospects in Grand Rapids till they're like 25, which is made easy by having Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and till now Lidstrom anybody understand what this guy is saying?

Author:	Apologist [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Yes.

Author:	Apologist [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
I'm just unsure as to which guy's statement confused you, as it seems to me like the same thing. Having good cornerstone players at the big boy level allows you to develop guys in the minors, and also not rush them into full-time roles once they are called up. The chicken-egg metaphor is the uncertainty of which is the cause, and which is the effect.

Author:	Apologist [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
The shell of Rolen was still there when Freese was acquired. Jay was initially the 4th OF. Craig has played all over the diamond, so you could call that a time share situation. Wainwright had to close in the postseason only because Isringhausen blew a tire Garcia wasn't really a blocked prospect- he had Tommy John in the minors and took 1-2 seasons to rehab Carpenter is like this years Craig- they have the luxury of him being a complimentary player The Red Wing analogy is on point

Author:	Dewskie [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Timely pitching and timely hitting.

Author:	Rod [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
rogers park bryan wrote: By not rushing anyone to the majors Allen Craig David Freese John Jay Jaime Garcia Adam Wainwright Matt Carpenter All of them were at least 24 in their rookie year. It's just a hypothesis right now....but I think we may have something Also, chicken and egg comes into play since having good players at the major league level stops you from rushing players But still.... I don't there's any particular genius there. And outside of Freese and Wainwright I don't think you'll look back on any of those guys' careers and think they're outstanding players. They're just playing their best at the exact right time. The Cardinals seem to have a knack for getting guys to do that. Joe McEwing is forgotten, but he had a good little run in a Cardinal uniform. In ten years no one outside of St. Louis will ever mention David Eckstein or Ryan Theriot (except Cub fans who still have their "The Riot" t-shirts). It reminds me of the great Yankees who had Whitey Ford and a rotating cast of pitchers. None of them were bums, but they had their best years right when the Bombers needed them, guys like Lopat, Reynolds, Turley.

Author:	312player [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Few reasons..they are well run from top to bottom..make the right hires and have capable major leaguers for the most part so no need to rush a prospect.Wish the cubs were run like the Cards.

Author:	Rod [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
312player wrote: Wish the cubs were run like the Cards. They're being run better. Like the Red Sox.

Author:	Curious Hair [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
I wish the Cubs were run like the '60s-'80s Baltimore Orioles. Now that was a fucking baseball machine.

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Author:	rogers park bryan [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: 312player wrote: Wish the cubs were run like the Cards. They're being run better. Like the Red Sox. The Red Sox are currently being run better? They traded away half their team and are about to trade for a manager

Author:	Rod [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
rogers park bryan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: 312player wrote: Wish the cubs were run like the Cards. They're being run better. Like the Red Sox. The Red Sox are currently being run better? They traded away half their team and are about to trade for a manager Right, but the guy who put them in that shape is now running the Cubs. I just think Theo Epstein is a con man. No different than a hundred other guys who think they're better than anyone else at running a ballclub.

Author:	Bucky Chris [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: 312player wrote: Wish the cubs were run like the Cards. They're being run better. Like the Red Sox. The Red Sox are currently being run better? They traded away half their team and are about to trade for a manager Right, but the guy who put them in that shape is now running the Cubs. I just think Theo Epstein is a con man. No different than a hundred other guys who think they're better than anyone else at running a ballclub. I definitely want guys who are always trying to be and get better, like Theo. I prefer that over guys who think they are worse than other people running ball clubs.

Author:	Rod [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Bucky Chris wrote: I prefer that over guys who think they are worse than other people running ball clubs.

Author:	Bucky Chris [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Bucky Chris wrote: I prefer that over guys who think they are worse than other people running ball clubs. Yea I mean, I don't get your premise. Is it that you think Theo is cocky? To be honest, I don't get that vibe from him. Others project a lot of stuff on him about him being a savior, etc. But that's not him. That's other people.

Author:	Rod [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Bucky Chris wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Bucky Chris wrote: I prefer that over guys who think they are worse than other people running ball clubs. Yea I mean, I don't get your premise. Is it that you think Theo is cocky? To be honest, I don't get that vibe from him. Others project a lot of stuff on him about him being a savior, etc. But that's not him. That's other people. What I mean is, I think he's a silverspoon who got opportunities more qualified guys haven't. He did well in Boston, but I think that has caused him to be arrogant. If he gets run out of Chicago, he's just another goof. He wins a World Series here, he's king and I'm wrong.

Author:	Bucky Chris [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Bucky Chris wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Bucky Chris wrote: I prefer that over guys who think they are worse than other people running ball clubs. Yea I mean, I don't get your premise. Is it that you think Theo is cocky? To be honest, I don't get that vibe from him. Others project a lot of stuff on him about him being a savior, etc. But that's not him. That's other people. What I mean is, I think he's a silverspoon who got opportunities more qualified guys haven't. He did well in Boston, but I think that has caused him to be arrogant. If he gets run out of Chicago, he's just another goof. He wins a World Series here, he's king and I'm wrong. What is your evidence to suggest he is arrogant? And complaining that a guy got an opportunity that others haven't is a boring topic. Plus, his organization won twice so it's not like that even matters anymore.

Author:	FavreFan [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
rogers park bryan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: 312player wrote: Wish the cubs were run like the Cards. They're being run better. Like the Red Sox. The Red Sox are currently being run better? They traded away half their team and are about to trade for a manager Sounds like the Cubs. Thats what I find funny that never really gets mentioned about Theo, except by JORR a couple times. They had to sell off almost $300 million of bad contracts Theo was responsible for. They had to completely gut their team and have their worst season in a really long time, because of what Theo did to that team. And nobody is talking about it. Interesting thing to watch will be to see who wins a WS next, the Cubs or Red Sox now. They are in similar positions with similar resources.

Author:	Bucky Chris [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
FavreFan wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: 312player wrote: Wish the cubs were run like the Cards. They're being run better. Like the Red Sox. The Red Sox are currently being run better? They traded away half their team and are about to trade for a manager Sounds like the Cubs. Thats what I find funny that never really gets mentioned about Theo, except by JORR a couple times. They had to sell off almost $300 million of bad contracts Theo was responsible for. They had to completely gut their team and have their worst season in a really long time, because of what Theo did to that team. And nobody is talking about it. Interesting thing to watch will be to see who wins a WS next, the Cubs or Red Sox now. They are in similar positions with similar resources. People in Boston talk about it

Author:	Bucky Chris [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Bucky Chris wrote: People in Boston talk about it And even Theo has said he made big mistakes at the end, over-investing in Free Agents.

Author:	FavreFan [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Bucky Chris wrote: People in Boston talk about it Of course they do. They couldn't wait for Theo to leave. I was referring to basically every Cubs fan except Jimmypasta.

Author:	FavreFan [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Bucky Chris wrote: Bucky Chris wrote: People in Boston talk about it And even Theo has said he made big mistakes at the end, over-investing in Free Agents. Well it'd look silly to deny it. The evidence is impossible to refute.

Author:	Bucky Chris [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
FavreFan wrote: Bucky Chris wrote: People in Boston talk about it Of course they do. They couldn't wait for Theo to leave. I was referring to basically every Cubs fan except Jimmypasta. Yea well again, just proving my point. Most people react to Theo as if he is responsible for the perceptions fans put on him. JORR was making statements specifically about Theo, so I was curious if he was basing that off reality, or taking what Cubs fans say and projecting that on Theo.

Author:	Darkside [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Quote: How do the Cardinals have so much success? Satan. Satan worship.

Author:	FavreFan [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
Bucky Chris wrote: FavreFan wrote: Bucky Chris wrote: People in Boston talk about it Of course they do. They couldn't wait for Theo to leave. I was referring to basically every Cubs fan except Jimmypasta. Yea well again, just proving my point. Most people react to Theo as if he is responsible for the perceptions fans put on him. JORR was making statements specifically about Theo, so I was curious if he was basing that off reality, or taking what Cubs fans say and projecting that on Theo. Yeah, I dont know and dont care how arrogant Theo is. My only point is that 2007 was 5 years ago and Im not sure if he's a good GM or not. There's certainly strong evidence from the last three years that he is not, but the concensus among Cubs fans seems to be that he's easily a top 5 GM.

Author:	Bucky Chris [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How do the Cardinals have so much success?
FavreFan wrote: Bucky Chris wrote: FavreFan wrote: Bucky Chris wrote: People in Boston talk about it Of course they do. They couldn't wait for Theo to leave. I was referring to basically every Cubs fan except Jimmypasta. Yea well again, just proving my point. Most people react to Theo as if he is responsible for the perceptions fans put on him. JORR was making statements specifically about Theo, so I was curious if he was basing that off reality, or taking what Cubs fans say and projecting that on Theo. Yeah, I dont know and dont care how arrogant Theo is. My only point is that 2007 was 5 years ago and Im not sure if he's a good GM or not. There's certainly strong evidence from the last three years that he is not, but the concensus among Cubs fans seems to be that he's easily a top 5 GM. Based off Championships, he might be. But in general, fans ranking/rating/grading GMs is typically a wasteful process, IMO.