Chicago Fanatics Message Board :: View topic - 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashPole

RFDC wrote:

Glavine is not much different than Buerhle and Pettitte?

5 time 20 game winner and 305 wins.

But think of how you thought of him as he was compiling that record. Did you ever consider him a great pitcher? I didn't. He was usually the third best starter on his team. Sometimes the fourth. And take a look at Pettitte's winning percentage. If you're going to credit that to great Yankee teams, you better credit some of Glavine's success to his teams too. As for Buerhle, he's a half generation down the road from those guys in a time when twenty wins doesn't happen often. He's one iffy pitch to Sammy Sosa away from two perfect games. In two seasons he'll have 200 wins with a .560 percentage. I don't think he's a Hall of Famer, but I don't really think Glavine is either. Like I said, the numbers are there and traditionally 300 wins is an automatic. He's going to get in and almost certainly on the first ballot. I'm just giving you my opinion. And that is that I consider him a very, very good, but not great, pitcher. I'd compare him to guys like Jim Kaat, Don Sutton and Tommy John. One is in and two aren't, but I could do without any of them in there. Fair enough?

Author:	Apologist [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:	2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashPole
2014 Nominees: Moises Alou Armando Benitez Sean Casey Jose Cruz Jr. Ray Durham Damion Easley Keith Foulke Eric Gagne Tom Glavine Luis Gonzalez Scott Hatteberg Jacque Jones Todd Jones Jeff Kent Jon Lieber Esteban Loaiza Paul Lo Duca Greg Maddux Matt Morris Mike Mussina Trot Nixon Hideo Nomo Jay Payton Kenny Rogers Richie Sexson J.T. Snow Shannon Stewart Frank Thomas Mike Timlin Steve Trachsel Jose Vidro Holdovers from this year's election: Craig Biggio (68.2% of the vote in 2013); Jack Morris (67.7%); Jeff Bagwell (59.6%); Mike Piazza (57.8%); Tim Raines (52.2%); Lee Smith (47.8%); Curt Schilling (38.8%); Roger Clemens (37.6%); Barry Bonds (36.2%); Edgar Martinez (35.9%); Alan Trammell (33.6%); Larry Walker (21.6%); Fred McGriff (20.7%); Mark McGwire (16.9%); Don Mattingly (13.2%); Sammy Sosa (12.5%); and Rafael Palmeiro (8.8%). Post if you voted in the poll, so we can figure out the percentages and number of voters. Just like the real BBWAA voting, you can select 0-10 candidates. As with anything involving this bored and voting, shenanigans and irregularities are expected and encouraged. I could not fit all the candidates in the poll, so you have the option to write in a John Leiber or a J.T. Snow. This will also allow SHARK to steal all our thoughts on this topic next year in one convenient place.

Author:	RFDC [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
voted

Author:	badrogue17 [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Voted

Author:	SomeGuy [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Voted

Author:	Apologist [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
I voted as well, obviously. Hmm assuming someone will be unanimous; or at least we'll know if someone votes "None of the Above" it should tell us the total number of voters You can change your votes at any time.

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2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashPole https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=76197	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Terry's Peeps [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Voted for Glavine Maddux Kent Thomas Biggio Morris Bonds Clemens Piazza

Author:	cpguy [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Voted for Maddux and Thomas.

Author:	The Original Kid Cairo [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Voted

Author:	Apologist [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Maddux Hurt Biggio Piazza Raines Smith Clemens Bonds Edgar Walker Got my vote. I guess I'm a Big Hall guy? I see we have votes for Loiaza and the Gambler As far as we know, nobody has submitted the Blank ballot?, Maddux should be considered unanimous, unless some poor soul comes forth and states otherwise...

Author:	Colonel Angus [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Glavine Maddux Big Hurt Jack Morris Mike Pizza Lee Smith Clemens Bonds Big Mac Sammy

Author:	Chus [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
voted

Author:	sinicalypse [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
DISCLAIMER: I KNOW I TALK TOO MUCH. I KNOW THAT YOU PROLLY DIDN'T READ. I ALSO KNOW THAT IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER ABOUT YOURSELF TO COMMISERATE WITH THE GROUP/THINK AND GO "HOLEY HOOEY THIS GUY IS WEIRD" --- I GET IT. PLZ BE ORIGINAL AND SUITABLY HILARIOUS IN SKEWERING ME FOR MY HELLBENT DESIRE TO TYPE! low blow on EL TIBURON! i have a feeling that you're about go get some PMs from board luminaries sometime soon. also, i didn't go to a single stats search or anything to look up these players' stats/comps/WARs b4 i voted with my gut, so i just wanted that out there. THAT SAID, AHEM, * HACQUES UND'LOOGIE, cracks knuckles * i went with kent, maddux, loaiza, mussina, frank, larry walker, bonds . jeff kent = world class pudwhack by many accounts, but the dude could hit at second base like few before him (joe morgan with less power?) and he sustained that excellence over a long period of time. idk how much he shifted around later down the road, nor do i know if he initially became a 2B because he was in a situation where he couldn't crack OF/DH types and thus he was plugged @ 2nd and did it well enough to rack up those #s.... but when you're talking all-time top offensr second baseman, you gotta include jeff kent and his truck. maddux = duh. it goes without saying........that said, the only real drama for him about this is whether he gets in this yea ror next year, since many old crusty BBWAA writers will leave him off their ballot just because basically, sans steroids, the only way to really try and reinforce the classic "gotta EARN it" mantra is banding together to keep a surefire HOF lock out of the hall for one year UST SO THE WRITERS CAN REACHAROUND THEMSELVES TO SAY ANOTHER JOB WELL DONE esteban loaiza: mexican pitching record. need i say more? PROTIP: my work here is done. mike mussina: coming back from the comedy pick, wow, moose is one of those guys who truly sneaked up on you in terms of "oh my lord this guy has 250+ wins along with the !!! career stats? PLAQUE PLEASE!* time and time again the hall has provided us with the occasional tale of a guy who had an all-time peak-years run but then hit a wall.... the equivalent of gayle sayers being magic until his knee/s got toe-up? or maybe sandy koufax, who left at/near the top of his game deciding to forego the finalizing of his career which were surely on a trajectory to bE hof-worthy and thensome (pedro is gonna give you another guy in that mould, except that he rebuilt himself and evolved into a very good pitcher who only showed the briefest glimpses of pedro) ------------- THAT SAID, mussina is like the polar opposite of that. he kept hanging around and honing his craft and was very very good as a yankee... except he had a bum year in his penultimate season, only to turn around and drop typical ~15+ win ~low-mid 3s ERA and THEN walked out on his own terms. if he was truly in it for the $$$ he'd still be in the yankees rotation for day. frank "big hurt" thomas --- i was born in 1980. when i was a kid frank thomas was "that dude" in chicago.... huge, stacked, ready to unleash at any given split second.... but at hte same time he was tecnically a brilliant hitter as he managed to work all of those wallks and clog up the bases, thus dustyproofing himself. what's interesting with frank is that he bridges the "should DHs get in the HOF?" gap between the traditional NOs and the newschool YEAHs. i think frank ended up taking 57.5% of his start at DH thrroughout his career, but when you needed him to play 1B he played 1B. his young/ish super-prime/apex years in the early/mid 90s, man, he was a force of baseball righteousness. so i think with frank besides the 1st year super31337club (you know, where bonds would be sans riodage) frank has both the insane super-peak run and the overall #s to ensure that he's in the hall sooner than later larry walker: welp, this is example #1 of my les expos bias here.... but while it's easy to slag him off and say that his overall #s weren't superbly decadent, you can make a example of him having a higher career WAR or..... fuck whats the HOF metric that the people at baseballthinkfactory.com comes with.... larry walker ranks in the top ~15 all time of their RF rankings, even ahead of vlad.... which is !!!!!. i'm sure he had some lingering issues from the years served @ la stade olympique, and of course his going to coloradio turned him into a product of the coors-field-bias-elite.... i think if jim rice is gonna get in.... well lets not even use that.... let's say if andre dawson got in, i think larry should get in because HE. WAS. BETTER. THAN. ANDRE. DAWSON. AT. BASEBALL. barry bonds: yeah, this is where it all comes to a head.... the stuff he did from 01/onwards is just pure legend.... it was literally the apex of roided up superplayers whose BP sessions were worth the price of admission. and think of hwo hard it was to be bonds, what having a dissheveled ron kittle running up like PLZ SIGN THIS STUFF FOR MY CHARITY" and barry did what many of us would do, told him to fuck off.... but that makes barry specual is that he also added in that he doesn't do this charity signing shit for white people. wow. just wow.....; but hey, at least he has honest.... there. without dissecting the presumed pre-riods/post-roids merits on whether or not barry deserves to get in, dude, the man was a fucking spectacle at the plate. especially between 01-05 and whatnot. he was just in another world of ballplayer and nobody came close.... he might see one or two pitches a game, and i'll be damned if he didn't parrlay that into ~60-70HRs.... all the while upping the rest of his offensive game from early days going up to perennially hitting .350... that's the amazing part. so for sheer spectacle alone, for cutting years off of hs life to become sort some of baseball ,achine.... you gotta give it to bondd. every isijce i oterwise, meh.... jack morris had one postseason and he's milked it really far. biggio is the posterchild for hall of very goood.... i mean, how many people played the vintage killer bees astro ans said OMFG WE GOTTA STOP BIGGIO... pfft. hearken doug and STOP YOURSELF. obviously the same could be said of larry walker, however, i think he's just a more extreme / less characterable versiion of vlad. overall i'd give his arm higher marks but still, damn, 69.7 war? to give you an idea, my guy vlad had like 55.8 war or someting and sammy sosa was only ~54. i would tender to guess that since larry had his pre-late-career/coors comeback the WAR discrepancy can be attributed, somehwat, do the change in the replacement player from larry's prime ~(90-02) whereas to vlad's (~99-08) it's also amazing that larry could have seasons of hitting .366, .363, .379, and .350 and still end up with a career average (.313) versus vlad's (.318) ah well, c'est la vie... soon enough i'll get around to my vlad for the HOF career post... i'll resarch it and use capital letters nad stuff. until then.... geronimooooo!!!! oh and hey lets toss in rock reigns cuz seeing an expos logo on the front page of the sunday trib and then a bigger one in the paper's guts is always a good thing =D

Author:	Don Tiny [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Present and accounted for.

Author:	lipidquadcab [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Voted. No Aaron Sele love? Hmmph...

Author:	Regular Reader [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Bonds Bagwell (Unlike Piazza, I don't believe the innuendo about him) Frank Raines (A victim of playing in the Rickey Era) Maddux McGriff (A victim of the steroids age imo) Glavine (The black on the plate is there for a reason..... ) Morris (An ace who usually went after the other guy's ace) Mussina (271 wins in the AL East count, despite Bernstein) Biggio (3K hits & 600 2Bs weighed heavy) I'd never vote for Clemens. I remember how he couldn't wait to come out of Game 6 in '86 & how he publicly trash his team & teammates in Toronto to come to NY with his newly juiced body. Bonds has been an SOB since he was a kid, but other than the other SOB Kent, I don't really remember him publicly trashing a teammate. (I agreed with him on the merits of Van Slyke getting a big deal in Pitt--that was more an indictment of the org. & how'd that work out )

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Author:	Rod [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Maddux Thomas Biggio Clemens Bonds Walker

Author:	Kirkwood [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Not really in the spirit of the thread or a rational sports thought. But Fred McGriff is an asshole. His diva act in 2001 was crap.

Author:	RFDC [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Maddux Thomas Biggio Clemens Bonds Walker I would have thought you would be a Glavine guy

Author:	Rod [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
RFDC wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Maddux Thomas Biggio Clemens Bonds Walker I would have thought you would be a Glavine guy I like Glavine but I don't think of him as a real all-time great. Obviously, his wins are there, but I don't see him as much different than Buehrle or Pettitte and I don't think those guys are close. You have to draw your lines somewhere or you end up with Dawson in there. To me, Walker is a guy who is going to get the shaft. He's like a poor man's Mantle and not a really poor man's version either. Of course, he's slightly less, but if Mickey is the standard, there are only going to be three or four guys in the Hall.

Author:	RFDC [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Glavine is not much different than Buerhle and Pettitte? 5 time 20 game winner and 305 wins.

Author:	Apologist [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Regular Reader wrote: Bonds has been an SOB since he was a kid, but other than the other SOB Kent, I don't really remember him publicly trashing a teammate. (I agreed with him on the merits of Van Slyke getting a big deal in Pitt--that was more an indictment of the org. & how'd that work out ) I can't say I've seen a better all around player on the field of play in my lifetime. No institution purportedly honoring the best players in the game is complete without him.

Author:	Apologist [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
sinicalypse wrote: low blow on EL TIBURON! i have a feeling that you're about go get some PMs from board luminaries sometime soon. I'll stop being harsh on SHARK when he stops citing other peoples' thought as his own. He isn't a fucking journalist. He's a message board poster, just like you and I. I have received exactly zero messages from "board luminaries" nor do I base any thoughts or opinions here based on such.

Author:	Apologist [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Walker [quote"RFDC"]I would have thought you would be a Glavine guy[/quote] To me, Walker is a guy who is going to get the shaft. He's like a poor man's Mantle and not a really poor man's version either. Of course, he's slightly less, but if Mickey is the standard, there are only going to be three or four guys in the Hall.[/quote] Larry Walker was one of the best hitters we have seen. Did he ply in Coors, and put up spme ridiculous numbers? Yes, yes he did. He was one of the best players of his generation. Any HOF should include him based simply on this criteria.

Author:	Apologist [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
lipidquadcab wrote: Voted. No Aaron Sele love? Hmmph... Sele received 1 vote, did not get the 5% necessary to carry over on the ballot until 2014.

Author:	Scorehead [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
I voted for: Glavine Maddux Big Frank

Author:	Frank Coztansa [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Voted; Its a travesty that Lee Smith and Rock Raines are not in the HOF yet. Raines was arguably the 2nd or 3rd best leadoff hitter to play the game. He just happened to play on the Expos for a while, and at the same time Rickey Henderson did so he was overshadowed. Lee Smith was the all time saves leader when he retired.

Author:	Rod [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
RFDC wrote: Glavine is not much different than Buerhle and Pettitte? 5 time 20 game winner and 305 wins. But think of how you thought of him as he was compiling that record. Did you ever consider him a great pitcher? I didn't. He was usually the third best starter on his team. Sometimes the fourth. And take a look at Pettitte's winning percentage. If you're going to credit that to great Yankee teams, you better credit some of Glavine's success to his teams too. As for Buerhle, he's a half generation down the road from those guys in a time when twenty wins doesn't happen often. He's one iffy pitch to Sammy Sosa away from two perfect games. In two seasons he'll have 200 wins with a .560 percentage. I don't think he's a Hall of Famer, but I don't really think Glavine is either. Like I said, the numbers are there and traditionally 300 wins is an automatic. He's going to get in and almost certainly on the first ballot. I'm just giving you my opinion. And that is that I consider him a very, very good, but not great, pitcher. I'd compare him to guys like Jim Kaat, Don Sutton and Tommy John. One is in and two aren't, but I could do without any of them in there. Fair enough?

Author:	RFDC [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: RFDC wrote: Glavine is not much different than Buerhle and Pettitte? 5 time 20 game winner and 305 wins. But think of how you thought of him as he was compiling that record. Did you ever consider him a great pitcher? I didn't. He was usually the third best starter on his team. Sometimes the fourth. And take a look at Pettitte's winning percentage. If you're going to credit that to great Yankee teams, you better credit some of Glavine's success to his teams too. As for Buerhle, he's a half generation down the road from those guys in a time when twenty wins doesn't happen often. He's one iffy pitch to Sammy Sosa away from two perfect games. In two seasons he'll have 200 wins with a .560 percentage. I don't think he's a Hall of Famer, but I don't really think Glavine is either. Like I said, the numbers are there and traditionally 300 wins is an automatic. He's going to get in and almost certainly on the first ballot. I'm just giving you my opinion. And that is that I consider him a very, very good, but not great, pitcher. I'd compare him to guys like Jim Kaat, Don Sutton and Tommy John. One is in and two aren't, but I could do without any of them in there. Fair enough? Yeah fair enough. I just find it hard to believe that you would compare Glavine to Buerhle. Pettitte I can see somewhat. But Buerhle has never won 20 games ever. Glavine did it 5 times. And while he may have not been the best pitcher on his team, that is because he was riding shotgun with one of the greatest pitchers ever and an automatic first ballot guy.

Author:	Hawg Ass [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 HOF Ballot- Preemptive Feigned Outrage ThreadSlashP
Question for the class, why is it ok that a known cheater Gaylord Perry can be in the hall of fame, but guys like Clemens, Bonds, etc can't? Are there different forms of cheating that are acceptable?