It's so funny that such a variance never haunted Sandy Koufax.

I wouldn't be shocked to pick up a copy of SI and read Sheehan telling me about some "metric" that has him convinced that Hector Noesi is actually better than 75% of all Hall of Famers.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

He's already got Abreu penciled in as the next Jose Hernandez.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

If this is where SABRmetrics are leading people, it's just wrong. It started with W/L record being "meaningless" and has now advanced to the point where hits and runs allowed are also apparently "meaningless". Maybe Jamie Navarro was really great after all and I just didn't know it at the time.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I figured you would be a huge supporter of the underlined thought.

Sweet merciful Christ.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Don't be a dumbass.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

_________________

Why is that funny?

@ Lipid though.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Some people are easily amused. And others just like to post dumb stuff like "Christ on a Canondale" for the thousandth time rather than having a real discussion or simply shutting the fuck up. Those people usually get angry when they get a response like this one, although it is easily expected.

As far as Lipid's response is concerned, I've never once suggested that hits and runs are meaningless. The limitations of those things are the tools a pitcher uses to build his W/L record. But everything has to be looked at in context. I'm sure Lipid would agree with me that, however we want to judge them, Bob Gibson was a better pitcher than Jake Peavy. And yet Peavy has allowed less walks and hits per 9 innings than Gibson did throughout his career.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Yes, I'm willing to make the controversial stand that, even though his career WHIP was a .001 better than Gibson's, looking at everything else Peavy is the inferior pitcher.

Yeah, but the Jake-meister never had to face Yaz.

_________________
Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

But it most certainly is a controversial stand if one is going to insist that "a pitcher's job is to prevent baserunners." Gibson did not do that as well as Peavy and Gibson had the advantage of playing in an era that was extremely favorable to pitchers.

The point is you can pull all kinds of numbers and use them to support all kinds of dumb arguments. Like saying that the screaming line drives David Price is allowing between strikeouts are meaningless.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Whatever. I guess you must agree with Joe Sheehan that his near 5 ERA and league leading hits allowed don't matter and he is having a great season. Either that, or you agree with what I'm saying but prefer to be a douche. Jesus on a jackhammer.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I agreed with your assessment on Gibson/Peavy and you gave me the business!

Well, you agreed in a snarky way. Obviously, there's no argument that Peavy is better than Gibson. Anyone who suggested otherwise would be certified insane.

The point wasn't really to discuss those two guys. It's the fact that easy access to information and statistics has caused this overriding desire in many fans, fantasy league players, and writers to look for stuff that isn't really there. Like how can we take a guy with a giant ERA and a lot of hits allowed and show the world how much smarter we are than all the people who rightfully think that guy is having a shit year.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Was this typed in a calm fashion?

Let us know when you follow either one of the options you listed.

_________________

Well I figured you were playing tongue-in-cheek devil's advocate when your stat of choice yielded a .001 difference, thus the snark...but fine, I'll check that.

How about the two of us agree that Joe Sheehan said something pretty stupid and rejoice in the fact we can agree on that?

The original statement by Sheahan is dumb and he's just trying to justify his earlier thoughts on Price


Bapip specifically has a lot of people confused

I didn't know Jorr had a problem with Darko.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

I've given this some thought, and I agree with JORR only to a certain extent. It is certainly true that in game situations, a pitcher may have to concede runs to win the game. Certain pitchers may also have inflated numbers due to their parks. But wins has just as many, if not more, variables that can mislead. This includes relief pitching and run support (as has already been discussed in other threads).

What I disagree with is the notion that pitchers are competing directly with one another and that the only thing that matters is beating the other pitcher. That's just one perspective on how you can view baseball. I could just as easily make the argument that competing offenses are facing off and that it is their job to beat the opposing offense no matter how many runs their pitcher gives up. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Also, if we were to extrapolate JORR's logic, a GM could just get the five best starting pitchers on the planet, regardless of money, and just have a lineup of triple A minimum contract players. It wouldn't matter how good the offense was, as the five best pitchers should almost always defeat a lesser pitcher, regardless of how good the offenses are. This would obviously not work.

_________________

I think that would be a pretty damn good team. I'm certain they would be a contender. And that AAA offense never has to face the five best pitchers on the planet.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I don't unless he pointlessly attacks me. If he finds a conversation tedious or idiotic or whatever, I would advise him just to ignore it like so many of the rest of us ignore conversations in which they have little to no interest. There are entire sections I find worthless but you don't see me in them mocking the participants by posting dumb stuff like "Zeus on a zephyr". Or he can just do what he does and I'll answer the way I do. Either way is fine with me.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I agree. That would be a good team if healthy.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

As long as you get Bigfan's guy to give the pitchers the ok you should be good.

Well, you couldn't get the five best pitchers on the planet. Let's say five very good starting pitchers. The relievers and position players are all Triple A caliber. It's safe to say those pitchers would not have elite records. A couple might be average or even good if some luck fell their way. But in my eyes, you can't downgrade them simply because their record isn't great. They didn't just suddenly become mediocre or bad.

I am of the belief that W/L records are useful in context. But that's true of any stat. ERA, WHIP, and records are very good together. I also think more attention should be paid to the W/L record of a team when a pitcher starts (not just the technical definition of W/L when the starting pitcher gets no decisions).

_________________

But that's changing the hypothetical. I'd say there's a fairly significant difference between the five best starting pitchers in the world and five very good pitchers. And as long as we are trying to add a hint of realism to this, your team would still be able to sign draft picks and it's highly unlikely that you don't eventually add at least 2-3 other ML caliber hitters or bullpen guys that will produce before they hit arbitration.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

A good team? You'd have a 5 man Jeff Samardzija situation. And 99% of every player's plate appearances aren't against the 5 best pitchers anyway. Statistically insignificant.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

You found that to be an "attack"? Jesus on a lawn Jart I had no idea you were so sensitive.
I was commenting on how you mindlessly and recklessly alter the hypothesis of your "opponents" by saying something that no one says, i.e. W/L is "meaningless" which no one is really arguing. You know that, unless you're completely obtuse. I suppose that is possible given some what I've read in that thread but having met you it didn't strike me at the time that you're dense or something.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

You're getting off track, but I'll just attribute it to your pot addiction. I'm not arguing whether the team would be good or bad . I'm arguing that it's not fair to saddle the pitchers with the losses.

_________________