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Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR
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Author:  Hussra [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

Ryan seems to post anti-WAR columns quarterly. His latest shot at the pro-WAR crowd must've hit closer to the mark, as it's gained some traction.

Quote:

OK, here we go. Let’s talk WAR or WARP, Wins Above Replacement or Wins Above Replacement Player. The ultimate absurdity.

I have a question for the WAR guys. Ever heard of Hurricane Hazle?

That would be Bob Hazle, a then 26-year-old outfielder the Milwaukee Braves called up from Triple A in the summer of 1957. In 41 games he hit .403 and compiled an OPS of 1.126. As a replacement player. Where’s the calculation on him? Where’s his WASP, Wins Above Starting Player? If the entire premise of WAR or WARP is to calculate the superior performance of an existing player over a mythical replacement player, then what happens when the replacement player far outperforms the regular he replaced? What’s his WASP?

Now I’m guessing the WAR guys have heard of Willie McCovey. Two years after Hurricane Hazle came out of Triple A to help Milwaukee win a pennant and World Series, McCovey emerged from Triple A to put together a pretty nice two-month stint for the Giants. He had two triples and two singles off future Hall of Famer Robin Roberts in his first big league game. In 52 games he hit .354 with 13 homers and 38 ribbies. He had an OPS of 1.085. He was Rookie of the Year. Pretty good for a “replacement player,” wouldn’t you say? Wonder what his WASP was?

The WAR people also have the audacity to calculate post-mortem WARs for players of bygone eras. Ty Cobb, for example. I’m just wondering how they come up with a WAR of 9.8 for Ty Cobb in 1909 when there were no farm systems, when players came to the big leagues after being purchased from independent minor league teams and thus there was no mechanism to identify just who the next “replacement player” was or where he would come from? Ty Cobb was pretty good. We don’t need a WAR number to tell us.

I’ll tell you this. If, on any given occasion, there are 35,000-plus people in Fenway Park, no more than 2,000 of them have the slightest interest in WAR. It’s probably closer to 500.

WAR is of interest only to people to whom WAR is of interest.

Oh, boy. I can hear those computers firing up right now. Just leave out the cuss words, OK?


http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/ ... story.html

Author:  Brick [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

Hasn't SABRmetrics basically been proven to be a myth?

Author:  Curious Hair [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

Not as good as Dan Shaughnessy's Poor Places or Jackie McMullen's Reservations.

Author:  Rod [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

He obviously doesn't understand WAR. There is no such thing as an actual "replacement player". It's funny that there are morons on each side of the thing. You've got bernstein who acts as if you can just put anyone in there and he's a "replacemnt level player" better than Gordon Beckham or Dayan Viciedo, and then you've got this buffoon who seems to take "replacement player" literally.

Author:  lipidquadcab [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

This is...special.

JORR takes the words out of my mouth. This article makes his sound like his main umbrage with the stat is the name of it.

So. Fucking. Stupid.

Author:  Curious Hair [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

I've never liked WAR because I don't see the sense in comparing players to an arbitrary baseline. Maybe that makes me an idiot, I don't know. I just prefer comparing players to other players.

Author:  rogers park bryan [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Hasn't SABRmetrics basically been proven to be a myth?

Uh...no

Author:  lipidquadcab [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

Curious Hair wrote:
I've never liked WAR because I don't see the sense in comparing players to an arbitrary baseline. Maybe that makes me an idiot, I don't know. I just prefer comparing players to other players.

But if everyone is compared to the same baseline...can't you still compare them to each other?

Author:  Brick [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Hasn't SABRmetrics basically been proven to be a myth?

Uh...no
Oh, that was that Rizzo was as good as Abreu. My mistake.

Author:  pittmike [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

There are a lot of teams dying for replacement level players at least.

Author:  rogers park bryan [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Hasn't SABRmetrics basically been proven to be a myth?

Uh...no
My mistake.

Weird thing to say. SABRmetrics is just a term for objective analysis of baseball through advanced statistics.

I dont see how something like that could even be a myth.

Author:  Brick [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Hasn't SABRmetrics basically been proven to be a myth?

Uh...no
My mistake.

Weird thing to say. SABRmetrics is just a term for objective analysis of baseball through advanced statistics.

I dont see how something like that could even be a myth.
Pseudoscience.

Author:  Hussra [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

Curious Hair wrote:
Not as good as Dan Shaughnessy's Poor Places or Jackie McMullen's Reservations.


Some would say Ryan's screed is pure pot kettle black.

Author:  redskingreg [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

Hussra wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
Not as good as Dan Shaughnessy's Poor Places or Jackie McMullen's Reservations.


Some would say Ryan's screed is pure pot kettle black.


Just read it. Can't stand it.

Author:  good dolphin [ Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob Ryan's neverending War on WAR

Curious Hair wrote:
I've never liked WAR because I don't see the sense in comparing players to an arbitrary baseline. Maybe that makes me an idiot, I don't know. I just prefer comparing players to other players.


and what creator in his right mind would make the arbitrary baseline as bad as it is? A right thinking person would at least choose average as a baseline. Anyone with kids would choose excellence as the ideal but so many people without kids wouldn't understand it that I can let it pass.

My son chooses the least intelligent kid in the class as his evidence that he is doing well. I choose the kid in china who either has to prove brilliance at an early age or be condemned to slave wage factory work as mine.

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