| Chicago Fanatics Message Board https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/ |
|
| Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=87468 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Rod [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
Wasn't he a better offensive player than Tony Gwynn? http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... to01.shtml http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... ge01.shtml |
|
| Author: | Hatchetman [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
perhaps, but Gwynn had twice the plate appearances, so he had roughly twice the value. plus tenace was a butcher in the field. |
|
| Author: | RFDC [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
In what universe is a guy that batted 241 for his career a better offensive player than Gwynn? |
|
| Author: | KDdidit [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
Gwynn only had a top 10 NL salary in one of his years? Sucks to not hit homers. |
|
| Author: | Hank Scorpio [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
KDdidit wrote: Gwynn only had a top 10 NL salary in one of his years? Sucks to not hit homers.  Yeah, I love hearing all the interviews with people talking about how Gwynn could've hit a lot of HRs or could've had more walks but he was so damn good at hitting that he never wanted anything else but to just keep on hitting. |
|
| Author: | Curious Hair [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
Turning away money and devoting himself to his craft, he truly was a Padre! |
|
| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
RFDC wrote: In what universe is a guy that batted 241 for his career a better offensive player than Gwynn? The same world where Tim Lincecum is having a better year than Shark.
|
|
| Author: | Rod [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
RFDC wrote: In what universe is a guy that batted 241 for his career a better offensive player than Gwynn? The one in which the .240 hitter got on base more? |
|
| Author: | jimmypasta [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
Ron Hunt & Minnie Minoso got on base a lot,too. So that begs the question: Is BA> OBP? |
|
| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: RFDC wrote: In what universe is a guy that batted 241 for his career a better offensive player than Gwynn? The one in which the .240 hitter got on base more? Gwynn's OPS is higher |
|
| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
Hank Scorpio wrote: KDdidit wrote: Gwynn only had a top 10 NL salary in one of his years? Sucks to not hit homers. Yeah, I love hearing all the interviews with people talking about how Gwynn could've hit a lot of HRs or could've had more walks but he was so damn good at hitting that he never wanted anything else but to just keep on hitting. Ah, the old Ichiro-Joe Mauer thing He could have hit 30 homeruns Well he probably should have. And if that means he could hit 30 but he's make more outs and have a .220 obp that's nothing to brag about. That's just being Mike Olt |
|
| Author: | Rod [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
rogers park bryan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: RFDC wrote: In what universe is a guy that batted 241 for his career a better offensive player than Gwynn? The one in which the .240 hitter got on base more? Gwynn's OPS is higher Not when adjusted for their eras and the parks where they played. |
|
| Author: | RFDC [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: RFDC wrote: In what universe is a guy that batted 241 for his career a better offensive player than Gwynn? The one in which the .240 hitter got on base more? So what is your angle here? No way in the world you really believe he was better than Gywnn |
|
| Author: | Rod [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
RFDC wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: RFDC wrote: In what universe is a guy that batted 241 for his career a better offensive player than Gwynn? The one in which the .240 hitter got on base more? So what is your angle here? No way in the world you really believe he was better than Gywnn There is a school of thought that suggests he is. You can't endorse it as a philosophy and then ignore it just because it doesn't "sound right" with regard to specific players. If you put a premium on getting on base, along with isolated power, and you take into consideration era and park factors and their respective positions, it isn't difficult to argue that Tenace was a more valuable offensive player. |
|
| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
Tenace walked at a pretty incredible rate. That's valuable. Some would say getting on base is a batter's prime objective and leads to runs scored most often. |
|
| Author: | Rod [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
In their time, nobody would have said Eddie Yost was better than Gil McDougald, but if you're looking at numbers on paper in 2014, most people probably think so. |
|
| Author: | sinicalypse [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
RFDC wrote: In what universe is a guy that batted 241 for his career a better offensive player than Gwynn? likely more career games/ABs and thus prolly more RBI and ultimately WAR (cuz i dont think gwynn was ever a + defensive player, was he? maybe when he was young and skinny but then that tapered off when he realized hitting .330+ was the thing to do first and foremost) and i'm guessing that JORR wanted to make a point about treating WAR like the be-all/end-all of player comparison. in the end it's kind of ironic that these stat people who have such great causes like "kill the win" and etc etc want to use some high powered mathematics to boil down the whole of a player's career into one definitive stat that stands out above all others.... meanwhile they turn around and tell you that the traditional stat/s that stood out above all others are hopelessly overrated and therefore not a proper means of determining a player's value. it's kind of like "you're not allowed to do/use/say that unless i tell you to!" you know? |
|
| Author: | Jaw Breaker [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: RFDC wrote: In what universe is a guy that batted 241 for his career a better offensive player than Gwynn? The one in which the .240 hitter got on base more? Gwynn's OPS is higher Not when adjusted for their eras and the parks where they played. My first exposure to Sabermetrics was the first or second Baseball Abstract by Bill James, and the thing that stood out the most to me was the park factors that he had calculated. There are so many ways specific fields affect performance, it was eye-opening. Some were well-known (Wrigley's daytime visibility helping boost averages but short alleys reducing triples, Coors Field's altitude, etc.) but some were less obvious...one that stood out was Oakland's enormous foul territory--batters like Tenace probably lost a lot of hits on foul pops that would be in the stands in most parks. |
|
| Author: | Rod [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
Jaw Breaker wrote: My first exposure to Sabermetrics was the first or second Baseball Abstract by Bill James, and the thing that stood out the most to me was the park factors that he had calculated. There are so many ways specific fields affect performance, it was eye-opening. Some were well-known (Wrigley's daytime visibility helping boost averages but short alleys reducing triples, Coors Field's altitude, etc.) but some were less obvious...one that stood out was Oakland's enormous foul territory--batters like Tenace probably lost a lot of hits on foul pops that would be in the stands in most parks. My first exposure to SABR came the same way via a guy named Howard Abernathy who was in my fantasy baseball league. He showed up with a mimeographed copy of one of the early editions of the Abstract. Of course, this made for lots of arguments as James was the champion of guys I had considered not much more than ordinary players, guys like Roy White and Darrell Porter. Howard took me to a SABR meeting, which was a bunch of poorly dressed geeks sitting around talking about baseball arcana. Some of the guys in the league gave Howard the derisive nickname, "Mr. Baseball". Howard and I drank a lot of Johnnie Black and argued a lot of baseball. I learned how to push his buttons and I once made him storm out of Quencher's muttering "Sammy Sosa" repeatedly. The Puerto Rican yuppies and hipster girls must have thought he was borderline insane, which he was. Howard died in 1999 or 2000. I'm sure he is somewhere cheering on his beloved Cardinals in their latest run of NL dominance. |
|
| Author: | jimmypasta [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gene Tenace- Hall of Famer? |
What I know about baseball stats stems from my eternal love of Strat-O-Matic board & online games. |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group https://www.phpbb.com/ |
|