Like I've said before, Canada might have a bigger boner for the Boston Bruins than they do for some NHL teams that actually do play in Canada. That's helped his legend immensely. Might be the same if he had been a Ranger.

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Stink doesn't have to scold you, I will. Theres no measurable you can come up with to say theres been better all around defenseman, ever. What is he overrated at? Just do a quick google search and you'll find several all time greats saying ( with numbers to support it) he was the greatest all around player ever and you're going to say he's not even the best defenseman ever? He fucking averaged plus 80 for his career!

Its too bad a guy who has seen about every great player ever doesn't know what he's talking about huh?

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Take it easy, Bernstein. "Measurables" don't really apply to hockey at this point in history. He was a forward playing defense - that's essentially what you're saying. And he was a damn good forward playing defense, too, don't get me wrong.

If you're not saying that, then here's some advice for this discussion - leave points out of it. Points don't matter a whole lot when discussing the value of defensemen.

Unless.....of course.....you'd like to side with me when discussing the value of one Brian Campbell!

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Fine, show me something, anything that shows me that any defenseman was better "all around" than Orr .

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Orr was a great defensive player. He never turned the puck over. He could skate. He could handle the puck. He could defend. He could assist. And he could score. There wasn't a damn thing he couldn't do on a hockey rink. And the game hasn't been the same since he appeared. And Dave Grohl sucks too!

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Don't take it personally.

You mean some kind of "measurable"?

Here are two examples of what I'm talking about - leave the stats out of most NHL discussions at this point:

1. Larry Robinson was the same era as Orr, and his +/- was way, WAY better than Orr (that's used a measure of defensemen more than points, usually). You clearly think Robinson was better than Orr based on that, I'm not sure I agree. You let me know.

2. Scott Stevens was arguably the best defenseman in the entire league in the 80's-mid 90's. He only averaged 40 points per season, so you must think he really sucks. I do not, and neither do most hockey people.

Points dont matter in this discussion.

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Things were amicable prior to this. You've crossed a line.

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Ovechkin scores the majority of his goals on the PP. He doesn't earn a "+" for those. If you don't want him I'll take him.

JORR - death is not an option:

Dave Grohl or Rush?

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Put a gun to my head, I'm going Grohl. The Foo Fighters are a good generic rock band. I would be pleased if I walked into Shark City and they were on stage. Rush is just fucking awful.

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Don't take it personally.

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I'm anti-Rush. Bunch of white tools with a eunuch for a lead singer. The fans are actually more annoying than the band. Another bunch of white tools that thinks a trio of white tools is really important music.

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Back off, Warchild. Seriously.

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Yes! Not sure how Foo Fighters is Grammy-worthy. Good band, don't get me wrong, but I just can't understand how they have become the "top rock band". TV on the Radio would kick their ass any day.



And Rush Sucks.

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You're all over the place in this post.

Who cares about Grammy's? I know you don't, neither do I. Foo are the top "mass-accepted" rock band. They're not the best band, just the best "big" rock band right now. Because of one person.

TV on the Radio? Couple good songs......and.....then......



Wait you think Rush sucks too?

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Robinson is the career plus minus leader at +730 in 1394 games played. Orr is second at +596 in 596 games played.
Bobby Orr’s average plus-minus per season is 80.1. This means that on average, Orr was one goal better than his opposition in any game while playing at even strength. Consider that Orr was also on the ice for 545 power-play goals in 596 games. Orr’s per season average is a whopping 81percent higher than the second best player, Montreal’s Jacques Laperriere, the outstanding defensive defenseman who was a mainstay on Montreal’s Stanley Cup teams in the 1960s and early 1970s. Consider that only six players in NHL history (other than Orr himself) have compiled a single season plus figure higher than Orr’s average number. Orr’s margin of victory is so overwhelming that we should consider another frame of reference to gain a perspective. Consider that if a racecar driver won the Indianapolis 500 by 81%, he would complete the 500th lap while the second place driver was on lap 276! When it comes to plus-minus, Bobby Orr is clearly in a league of his own.

Orr's career was less than half that of Robinson's ( not Robinsons fault obviously and he also demonstrated he was remarkable for career excellence as evidenced by his plus / minus). Do I think he was better than Orr? Nope but he's probably closest to Orr as second best all time. Orr's per season plus minus average was almost double (80.1 to 41.9) that of Robinson's and more than 4 times(+18) that of Scott Stevens.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Yes. Rush sucks.

I don't care about the Grammys. That said, I just think there are better rock bands out there, lyrically and musically.

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BRogue -
You just said Larry Robinson is the 2nd best defenseman of all time, to Bobby Orr.

Do I have that right?

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Yeah what a controversial statement.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

That's crazy

You think these guys are clearly behind Robinosn (and Orr)?:

Lidstrom
Borque
Chelios
Stevens
Coffey
Potvin
Leetch

I'm starting to stretch now, but I could list more.

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No, I think Orr was so far ahead of everyone else that everyone you listed is on the next level, including Robinson.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Well, I still don't agree with you, but I'm glad you changed from the Orr/Robinson 1 & 2 thing.

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Robinson was just as good as a defenseman as any of the guys you listed, I dont see whats so crazy about saying that.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Well, neither one of us saw Robinson, but.....there was 12 starting defensemen back then.


In the entire league.

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Just take a look at his recent lazy play.

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

Shark City! Wow. That was one my joints many years ago. It's still there.

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CSFMB 2014 Nascar Pick 'em Champion

We don’t have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven’t taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much. — Ronald Reagan

A good comparison for Orr would be Mickey Mantle. They both had Hall of Fame careers in spite of being virtually crippled. There's no telling what they might have done had they not been gimpy.

And they both changed their respective games. There had never been a defenseman who could skate and stickhandle like Orr. The things that were expected of defensemen post-Orr were drastically different. There had never been a combination of power and speed like Mantle. Mickey Mantle is the sole reason some of our dads had us out in the backyard turned around learning how to bat left-handed.

Also, I wouldn't exactly call Robinson and Orr the same era. I can remember Robinson's entire career. Not so for Orr. And I do believe they played as a pair on a Canadian team when Orr was all busted down and he was still the dominant guy of the two.

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Don't take it personally.

Comparison of a guy who played in Boston to Mickey Mantle = 7 more pages of this thread from StoneRoses.

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Don't take it personally.

I think there's a misconception that because Orr's offensive numbers are so far off the charts that he was more like Paul Coffey and didn't take care of his defensive responsibilities which anyone who played against him. with him, or watched him play refute. He body checked, he blocked shots, he stripped opponents of the puck, he cleared the crease. He did everything a defenseman was supposed to do. He killed penalties by himself ragging the puck, no one could take it away . Its hard for the opponent to score goals when they don't have the puck . When he did get caught up ice, he would still beat everyone back down because he was faster than everyone else. He was the total package. Most people say that Nick Lidstrom is the best modern day defenseman but theres nothing he did that Orr didn't do as well or in a lot of cases a lot better.The position changed because of Orr. There are legit arguments that Orr was the greatest player ever, ahead of Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux. Where are Nick Lidstrom, Ray Borque, Scott Stevens ( who never even won 1 Norris as best defenseman mind you) in those debates? Not even in the picture. Orr isn't there because he was the greatest offensive defenseman ever , its because he was the most complete player ever to lace them up . Thats what sets him apart from any other defenseman, ever.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.