I believe the Suns are now 1-4 without Nash this season, and 4-13 in Phoenix when he doesn't play, and they are definitely a different offense, more jump shots than inside easy points.

I think that Shawn Marion is really missing Nash. Amare Stoudemire is so dominating in the paint that as long as he gets his touches, he's just going to overpower players, and get his numbers. I don't believe the Suns run many plays for Marion, and a lot of his touches are just Nash finding him by the basket for an easy dunk/layup. Watching him without Nash, he disappears within the offense, and takes a lot more jump shots, as the entire team does because they don't have a point guard who finds them cutting to the basket. Barbosa will score 20 points, but he's a shooting guard playing point guard.

So, Nash has better numbers than the previous seasons where he wins the MVP B2B, and the Suns are showing they can't win games without him (their only win was because of missed unguarded Portland layup with 2 seconds to go, and they have lost to ATL and CHI at home, and SEA on the road) consisently.

Is he the MVP of the NBA again or is there another player more deserving ?

Pau Gasol.

According to Jerry West, this guy is the second coming of Christ. And if we want him, it will likely take Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Tyrus Thomas, the Knicks’ pick, and maybe the Jordan statue…

...And a couple of the half-eaten jelly donuts Krause left behind in his desk drawer.

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I'm bringin Sellars back..

Haha!

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

I was holding out for just Brown, Sweetney and the #1 pick....I still don't think that's unfair considering the team is totally rebuilding, will have their own pick plus another top 10 pick, and then lots of cap room, which is a commodity in trades.

I've seen Iverson and R.Wallace get traded for nothing or little....

Either way, I don't think they're going to the finals with/without Gasol - I don't see him as an impact player like that who can carry your team to the finals, even in a bad conference.

Gasol alone wouldn't put them in the Finals, but they would move closer to being a championship team than they are now. An inside-outside combination of Gasol and Gordon would be quite formidable.

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That’s definitely a lowball offer. I wouldn’t go so far as to call it insulting, but I don’t think there’s a chance in hell it can be done that cheaply. There are enough teams interested in Gasol that someone would surely top expiring money and a mid lottery pick. You’ll need a solid prospect as well. I would give them Tyrus, but not Deng or Gordon. The only reason the Deng talk makes any sense to me is because A) they may view Tyrus as a suitable replacement for Deng’s role, and B) losing Deng and keeping Tyrus limits the explosion in payroll they face for the 2008 season and beyond. Also, BD, I don’t think the Iverson/Wallace trades are in the same class as the potential Gasol deal. Pau is younger than both players, has no history of being a malcontent (you might argue requesting a trade negates that point, but I believe he’s handled it as professionally as possible), has a reasonable contract, and generates revenue in a foreign market in addition to their own local market. I would not break up the team to bring him in, but I would give them one (and only one) of our kids, along with PJ and the pick.

I'm starting to think that way too. Gasol is pretty effin' good. Now, just about all these kids the Bulls have have the potential to be very good, but they have nothing in Gasol's role. That and the fact that the Bulls have really struggled of late.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

I don't see Memphis going for Tyrus and the pick. If Pax could make that deal, though, the Bulls would instantly become a Finals team.

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Actually, that should be a pretty good litmus test as to whether or not they really want to move him. If they turned down an offer of PJ, Tyrus, and the Knicks’ pick, then it would appear to me that they’re expecting someone to pry him away, and that he’s not necessarily on the block. Look around the league and find me a team that can produce a better package without gutting their roster. There isn’t one.

It’s quite possible that they’re hitching their wagons to the “let’s see how Pau feels after we land Oden or Durantâ€

What about Zach Randolph as the Bernstein just mentioned ? The guy is a double-double player on the court, but a headache at times off of it, but people like Sam Smith seem to believe that the Michigan St. connection with Skiles would help Randolph.

I have a hard time figuring out what the deal is with him out there - I think they would move to get out from under his contract, but you don't hear his name mentioned often either, probably for the same reason ($$$).

What would be the price tag for him ? Thomas, Brown, Sweetney and the draft pick ?

Would that impact the Bulls in locking up Gordon/Deng in future seasons ?

Or it could just mean they want Deng or Gordon instead with the #1.

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I like his game a lot. What exactly are the details of his misbehavior?

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Randolph’s contract is virtually identical to Gasol’s, and the financial ramifications are in Uncle Jerry’s hands at that point. He’d put them over the luxury tax threshold starting in 2008, but if the Bulls were legitimate contenders, I tend to believe Reinsdorf would ante up. The Bulls are the 2nd most profitable team in the NBA, behind only the Lakers (the Knicks actually gross more, but their payroll is so insane that the Bulls are actually more profitable, to the best of my knowledge). As far as a trade goes, he’d command less than Pau, for the exact reasons you’ve outlined above. If Skiles truly believed he could get the best of out him, I would offer Portland expiring money along with a top-2 protected Knicks’ pick, but certainly none of our core players.

But that answers the question right there. If they’re going to move him, you take the best package you can get. Why would the Bulls bid against themselves? If Pax makes an offer that tops all other suitors, regardless of what that offer may entail, and Memphis turns it down, then they’re clearly not dead set on moving him.

To get Gasol. I assume that's what West is thinking, anyway. If the Bulls believe Gasol is that valuable, they'll make the deal regardless of what other teams are offering because, as you say, there's no guarantee Gasol is going to be traded.

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The Knicks. I was watching them the other night and, despite their pathetic record the last few years, they have managed to assemble quite a lot of individual talent. They could give up enough talent to get a Gasol without gutting their team, but with Curry playing well, they obviously don't need to.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

I watched the GS/NYK game last night, and that lane was a gaping hole for the Warriors to just attack all night long....Curry and Jerome James in the paint = lots of points for the opposition if they attack.

The thing about the Knicks is most of their talent is too high priced to have any worth in a trade.

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"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

Pax is smarter than that, Midge. This isn’t the Alex Rodriguez silent auction. He knows exactly what his competitors have to offer, and I’d expect he has a pretty good feel for what West will accept. And if that happens to be Deng or Gordon plus the lottery pick, I think Pax folds his tent and lives to trade another day.



Matt, the Knicks are full of bad contracts and they have no draft pick to offer. Their most valuable asset in a deal would be Channing Frye, but they have absolutely nothing to pair him with. Comically, they would have if they hadn't bought out Jalen Rose. Despite being worthless on the court, he was a significant asset as an expiring contract.

Good point, that.

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You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

David Lee is probably their most valuable asset...and Isiah would be stupid to trade him. So expect him to be moved before the deadline along with Jamal Crawford for Mike Bibby.

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"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

I like David Lee as well, but a scrappy forward is easier to find than a coordinated big man, and that’s why I give the nod to Channing Frye. In any case, those are the only 2 guys on that squad that other GMs would inquire about. Problem is, David Lee makes about $900K. Considering nobody wants their other garbage, it’s hard to get a stud in return.

Would it be stupid to make the Deng + pick for Gasol deal? Nocioni could move back into the starting lineup and the Bulls would then have a very strong starting lineup. Considering that players of Gasol's skill level aren't routinely available, I don't think "overpaying" to get him would be so dumb.

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I don’t think it would be disastrous, but I’d definitely be disappointed. Luol is 21. Comparing his skill set side-by-side to Gasol is not necessarily apples to apples in my eyes. It’s entirely reasonable to believe that in a few years Deng may be an elite SF in the NBA. And not only would you be providing them with an outstanding young player, you’d be giving them a 2nd lottery pick, and opening the door for them to have between 15-20 million dollars in cap space. It’s about the total package, not just Deng vs Gasol. I would submit that Memphis would come out with the better end of that deal (assuming their ownership situation is resolved and they actually utilize that cap space), and to me, that’s not a good business decision when Memphis is supposed to be the team caught between a rock and a hard place. Sure, the Bulls could certainly use an upgrade at the PF position, but when you consider you have both Tyrus and the Knicks’ ping pong balls in your back pocket, I’d rather stay the course than overpay for a need at this point. Outside of Wallace, the Bulls are still a very young team. Theoretically, they could bring in Gasol and still be 2-3 years away from a title.

Buckets - Where do you see players like Deng and Gordon stacking up at their positions 3 years from now ? Are they all-stars ?

Who knows, BD. I'm just a fan, not a scout. My opinion, for what it's worth, Deng has the higher upside. I don't expect he'll ever be a prolific scorer, but I do believe he can and will be a special player for the Bulls. We'll know more as his body fills out. I think a lot of people mislabel him as a guard-forward type. I actually see him potentially as a combo forward as he grows into his frame. He's 6'9" with a wingspan that's probably 7'. He should put on another 10-15 pounds or so as he approaches his mid twenties, and that extra muscle will likely make him a better rebounder and possibly a threat to put up some points in the paint. Not a banger necessarily, but I don't see any reason why he couldn't develop a nice turnaround jumper down low. As for Gordon, sure he'll improve, but maybe not to the extent that Deng will, simply because of his physical limitations. We all know Gordon can shoot. What I'd like to see from him is the ability to create off the dribble. He's shown some signs of that, but he's a far cry from Gilbert Arenas. He also needs to demonstrate that he can tighten up his defense without fouling so much. Hopefully, that will come with maturity. And even if it doesn't, that's why they drafted Thabo.

I think they'll both be all-stars ultimately. The question is, will they have a few all-star years here and there, or will they be perennial all-stars? I can't really answer that. I'd like to say yes, but it's easy to fall in love with your own guys (as Pax is often accused of doing).

Is it reasonable to think Deng will be an elite SF in a few years? After his first three years in the NBA, the one thing he does really well is shoot the mid-range jump shot. He doesn't have the explosive first step or dribbling skills to be a great penetrator and he's very limited in the post up game. To me, he's not a guy who will ever consistently command a double-team. He is a nice player, but his skills are, to me, replaceable--and, in fact, the Bulls already have a replacement in Nocioni who isn't that much worse than Deng is right now.

Gasol, on the other hand, has rare skills. He can get easy points and frequently needs to be double-teamed. Consequently, he is the game-changing player the Bulls lack. If the Bulls keep Deng and the pick, will they be able to draft a similarly skilled player who will have the immediate impact that Gasol will? Not likely, especially given where they're likely to be drafting.

To me, the proposed Gasol-for-Deng deal seems like a good one from the Bulls perspective. In my estimation, you're focusing too much on what the Bulls would give up rather than what they'd be getting in return.

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Midge, he was a borderline all-star this season, and he's only 21 (I realize I've said this several times, but I'm tired of the assumption that he is what he is). Also, he's completed 2 NBA seasons, this year is his 3rd. Furthermore, it's worth pointing out that he's only had 1 true offseason, as he was recovering from a broken wrist the summer after his rookie year. And if you believe his mid-range jumper is the best part of his game, then we obviously don't see eye-to-eye on Deng or his future. As for the Nocioni remark, I really have to disagree with you there. Noce is an outside shooter that happens to scrap as well. He has none of Deng's athleticism. I think Luol has more in common with Tyrus than he does with Nocioni.

Look, I won't be screaming bloody murder if Deng leaves and Gasol enters. I just happen to believe that the asking price is too high. And as for my focus, I'd be happy to discuss any angle you'd like. I've looked into this far more deeply than I care to admit. You want to discuss the ramifications for Memphis? I'm game if you have the interest. There are plenty of issues I'd be glad to debate with you or anyone else around here, but I feel as though I'd be talking to myself, so I haven't posted every thought that's run through my head on the subject.