Right totally different cases requiring different packages of prospects.

Just totally unrealistic

You can make the same argument with Garza. He can actually walk as a free agent in 3 years. If you are going to give up a shitload of good prospects, why not land a premier every day player? Or just keep the prospects and go young.

Other than the fact that pitchers tend to age better than hitters AND we would have had to give up MORE prospects to get Gonz AND he would cost a lot more money starting this year/next year.

Garza is here cheaply for the next couple years until he's due for a raise. It's very possible we'll be able to start building a team featuring him at the top of our rotation.

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Team Cutler.

And just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...

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Your pet peeve with that is very weird. But okay,


It's very possible the Chicago Cubs will be able to start building a team featuring him at the top of their rotation.

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Team Cutler.

Its not a pet peeve. I just mean that if Garza is the best starter on that staff, the starting pitching probably isn't going to be very good for a while.

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No reason they needed to choose between the 2. Garza basically replaced Lilly. Gonzalez could have served as the replacement for Derek Lee (who was making 14 million) at a cost initially lower than Lee's salary.

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Go Cubs!!!!

I understand your point, but Garza is at 5.95M this year and is arbitration eligible, so he will avg at least 8-9M for the next 2 years before free agency in 2014, so he's not that cheap. If they want to add a bat like Gonz, they are now going to have to pay Fielder or Pujols which will be more than Gonz. And you know Pujols ain't coming here, leaving Fielder.

In all probability, they are going to have to develop or trade for a long term answer at 1B and if they want to keep Garza, they are going to have to overpay to keep him as he is used to winning.

I'd still have given up more to get Gonz if you are going to move 4 good prospects as they did to get Garza. And San Diego is in rebuilding mode, so they should have been receptive to that kind of offer.

Gonz projects as having the skill set to still be highly productive in 4-5 years.

The other point is the ineptitude of Hendry in overpaying for Garza, a guy who "may" become dominant but right now is inconsistent.

Gonz on the other hand is having an MVP season.

Where were they getting all the prospects to make both of these trades? They werent FA signings...

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You underrate Garza

Agreed, the only thing that stopped Garza from being the #1 in Tampa was some guy named Price.

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He's inconsistent, but stuff wise he can definitely be a top 1-2 starter for a winning team. I don't think it's crazy to think that he'll be one of the Cubs best pitchers when they are competitive again

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Team Cutler.

He is 5 games under .500 for his career (46-51) with an ERA of 4.00 and a WHIP of 1.318.

And Shields...

He is not a #1 in the AL East. Once he gets his career record over .500 and ERA in the 3's, then you might have a case. Until then, you guys are over estimating him WAY more than I am underestimating him.

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I know advanced metrics scare some, but he's been really good in a variety of saber stats this year.

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Team Cutler.

He also pitched in the toughest division in baseball for the majority of that career.

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He also pitched in the toughest division in baseball for the majority of that career.[/quote]
He remains inconsistent this year: 4-7, 4.26 ERA, 1.337 WHIP. I like the guy but he has not emerged as a front line starter but rather a # 3.

Gonz is tearing up the toughest division in baseball in an MVP caliber season.

Except for Shields 5.18 ERA and 15 Losses last year and Garzas 3.91 with 15 wins



Just for a frame of reference. Where would you rank him if he were on the white sox?

No higher than 3rd.

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He remains inconsistent. Look at his last start when he was torched. I like the guy, but right now, he is a # 3 starter. I hope that SS Lee they gave up doesn't turn into an all-star. Tampa's ability to evaluate talent is upper tier.

Fielder Independent Era puts Garza with the 5th best ERA in baseball. Behind Halladay, Kershaw, Hamels and Lee.

Meanwhile, his BABIP is a high .322.

Those are related.


He's been good this year. With a stronger defensive team behind him and a bit better 'luck' with babip, he could easily be a #1 or #2 starter on a winning team.

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Team Cutler.

Behind whom?

Depends on whether they might be willing to part with guys like Brett Jackson I suppose. It might well be that they are better off hanging onto the prospects and trying to sign a free agent to play 1b, as there are several that could be had this winter. It's likely to be a couple years before they will be a legitimate contender even in their division. I don't see them getting guys like Puljols (don't want him either) or Fielder this winter and putting things together quickly. I think Ricketts is more interested in fixing up the ballpark and building from the minor leagues. They might go after free agents, but probably more as stop-gap measures than aquiring true building blocks from free agency.

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Go Cubs!!!!

what? lol

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6.5 actually.

But the 21 million every year for the next 5 years might be part of it.

A budget goes beyond one year

interesting contract structure

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You couldn't be more wrong. Kelly, Rizzo and Fuentes are monsters and all three are better than anyone the Cubs gave up for Garza. To equal that deal the Cubs would have had to trade Brett Jackson and Trey McNutt along with Archer and another player AND sign Gonzalez to a monster contract. Boston is in a position to make a deal like that and the Cubs are not.[/quote]

None of these 3 are ranked by Baseball America in the just released Top 50 Prospect List. Lee, who was in the Garza trade, is # 22.

Midseason Top 50 Prospects List

Posted Jul. 7, 2011 2:06 pm by J.J. Cooper
Filed under: Prospect Rankings
Here's a listing of our midseason Top 50 prospects. Prospects have to have not used up their rookie eligibility or currently be in the big leagues to be eligible. Also, 2011 draftees are not yet eligible.

1 Bryce Harper, of, Nationals
2 Mike Trout, of, Angels
3 Matt Moore, lhp, Rays
4 Julio Teheran, rhp, Braves
5 Manny Machado, ss, Orioles
6 Martin Perez, lhp, Rangers
7 Shelby Miller, rhp, Cardinals
8 Jesus Montero, c, Yankees
9 Jameson Taillon, rhp, Pirates
10 Brett Lawrie, 3b, Blue Jays
11 Jacob Turner, rhp, Tigers
12 Jurickson Profar, ss, Rangers
13 Manny Banuelos, lhp, Yankees
14 Drew Pomeranz, lhp, Indians
15 Devin Mesoraco, c, Reds
16 Arodys Vizcaino, rhp, Braves
17 Wil Myers, of, Royals
18 Carlos Martinez, rhp, Cardinals
19 Tyler Skaggs, lhp, Diamondbacks
20 Desmond Jennings, of, Rays
21 Dee Gordon, ss, Dodgers
22 Hak-Ju Lee, ss, Rays
23 Jake Odorizzi, rhp, Royals
24 Aaron Hicks, of, Twins
25 Leonys Martin, of, Rangers
26 Dellin Betances, rhp, Yankees
27 Mike Montgomery, lhp, Royals
28 Wilin Rosario, c, Rockies
29 Travis d'Arnaud, c, Blue Jays
30 Matt Harvey, rhp, Mets
31 Jason Kipnis, 2b, Indians
32 Brett Jackson, of, Cubs
33 Gary Brown, of, Giants
34 Robbie Erlin, lhp, Rangers
35 Zack Wheeler, rhp, Giants
36 Kyle Gibson, rhp, Twins
37 Anthony Ranaudo, rhp, Red Sox
38 Taijuan Walker, rhp, Mariners
39 Zach Lee, rhp, Dodgers
40 Jarrod Parker, rhp, Diamondbacks
41 Jonathan Singleton, of/1b, Phillies
42 Brad Peacock, rhp, Nationals
43 Jarred Cosart, rhp, Phillies
44 Randall Delgado, rhp, Braves
45 Anthony Gose, cf, Blue Jays
46 Nolan Arenado, 3b, Rockies
47 Allen Webster, rhp, Dodgers
48 Matt Szczur, of, Cubs
49 Jedd Gyorko, 3b, Padres
50 Paul Goldschmidt, 1b, Diamondbacks

6.5 actually.

But the 21 million every year for the next 5 years might be part of it.

A budget goes beyond one year[/quote]


True. But the Cubs have 53M+ coming off the books next year as I'm sure you know.

Rizzo is not on the list because he's in the majors after less than a half a season of destroying triple A (.365 16 HR 63 RBI 1.159 OPS) at the tender age of 21. If eligible he would easily be in the top 10.

Kelly and Fuentes are too raw to appear on that list but they will be in the next year or two.

I stand corrected on Rizzo, although he is off to a slow start in San Diego (.165 BA, .610 OPS through 85 AB's). As to the 2 guys who are "raw", Kelly's stats aren't great at all (a 1.424 WHIP in AA ball) so hard to call a AA guy "raw". Fuentes looks promising albeit at A ball and has never been ranked per Baseball Reference, so hard to call him a "monster".

When the trades were made, most say Boston made a damn good trade and that the Cubs overpaid. 1/2 season later, this seems to be accurate.