That's a good point too, but I'm not talking about the terrible signings. I'm talking about how Joe Johnson got way more than he was worth and how Rashard Lewis is rolling in money. The teams were in a lose-lose situation. They had to overpay because of the system because that's as good as they could have done. I honestly don't think Atlanta had any choice because I don't know who they would have gotten that would have excited fans and made the team better.

The model for success in the NBA is one of two things:
1) Be a big market team that players will go to. Those are also the teams that are making money right now.
2) Hit the draft lottery and keep your star happy enough to stay (Duncan, Durant, Howard?).

A team like the Pacers are screwed without the lottery, and unfortunately for them they are just good enough to make it really hard to get a top pick. They have a choice of being really bad, and turning off fans, or overpaying for good players who then limit your chances to be great.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Your post just read like a Meatball Fan mult. The reason Presti and RC Buford win is because they are not stupid. The Hawks are. Your logic is the same as the owners, and it's awful logic. So because you can't sign Lebron you are gonna sign the best player you can for Lebron money? Even if he's half as good as Lebron? No, that is incredibly stupid. You let someone else do that and stay flexible with your cap and acquire your franchise guy through the draft, like most successful teams do. You dont lock your franchise into 45 win mediocrity for half a decade

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

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They won the draft lottery. It's just like the Bulls. They look a lot smarter because they lucked into Derrick Rose. OKC would be in big trouble if they had Oden instead of Durant.
So basically you think that the best option is to be bad for a long time until you eventually hit the draft lottery and get a star? Do you still think that it's just stupid owners and not the system?

If I'm an owner I have a tough time selling to my fan base that we are just waiting until we get a superstar by getting a top 3 pick and hoping he's not a bust.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

If the thunder got Oden instead they would still have Westbrook, harden, and a core group. Not really big trouble. The Spurs got lucky with Duncan, but almost every move they made since then was flawless. They aren't winning because they got lucky, they are winning because they took the right guy and made the right moves. Melo and Bron might still be in Denver and Cleveland if Pops or Presti were running the show there.

Also stars don't only come from top 3 picks. You might get a star or a bust in the draft but you might get a star. Give Joe or Rashard $100M and it doesnt make them a star, just a cap liability. So when you do get that star in the draft you just successfully ensured you won't be able to surround him with the pieces necessary

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

How is Kobe a bad example? Your quote just basically agrees completely with my original point. He is a completely different player now than he was 6 years ago, yet he's making more money. That's not depreciation.

Its not something that you can actually put a number on, and put on your accounting books. That’s the point. I mean, otherwise your company would do it, and so would mine, and so on and so on. Its essentially documenting your minions. You’re putting numbers on people. Besides that, if your teams sucks because your players suck (because they’ve “depreciated”) then your team is worth less. But that’s not a number you can technically keep track of and put on your accounting books. And on top of THAT, how much money will you, as a franchise, have to spend in order to accurately portray how much you believe your players are worth? A million? 10 million? The time and money spent trying to figure that out each year would be enormous. And completely not worth it.

As much as we like to call players “assets” of a team….they really aren’t assets in that way. They can quit, they can try harder, they can get injured, they can become great players, they can sell tickets for you, they can NOT sell tickets for you. They can decide to be awesome, or decide to be Baron Davis. But, they can’t make potatoes crunchy. They don’t have resale value. They have trade value. But to you, Baron Davis might be worth 12 million, but in my system I need a PG who isn’t fat and lazy so to me he’s only worth about 4 million. When I want to resell my car there is really not a lot wiggle room on what its worth. In this condition with those scratches and that number of miles its worth about $15,000. There is so much less that goes into determining the value of a fixed asset. Because you purchased that arena's fryer for S1,000, you then depreciate it evenly over its lifespan of say, 5 years. So every year, you take a hit of $200 for depreciation costs. You just cannot do that with a real, living, breathing person who can make his own decisions.

Two future hall of famers were handed to them. That's not a business plan. That's just luck. You are basically saying they should be bad until they get a future hall of famer. That's unrealistic for most teams because there are only so many hall of famers to go around.
Good luck selling to your fan base that you let an All-Star walk in order to hope that you get lucky in the lottery.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Kobe is not selling more tickets now. If anything, he's less of a draw because he's not the best player in the league any more.
I don't have a contract and you probably don't either. I'm sure that there are certain tax implications for multi-year contracts in other businesses too.
Let's say that the Lakers traded Kobe Bryant in 2007. They could have gotten virtually any player in the NBA. If they tried to trade him today there would be a big list of players that would not be available. I know I wouldn't trade Rose for Kobe right now but I sure would have traded his draft rights for Kobe.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Who got handed two future HOFers?

And by your logic several teams are given future all stars every offseason

And I would have no problems explaining to my fans why I am not stupid enough to give Joe Johnson $120 million guaranteed

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I would be willing to wager anything that Los Angeles disagrees. If what you say is true, why are tickets considered "Premium" whenever LA goes to any arena in the country? Not because of Pau Gasol.



Right, but I think that list of unavailable players would exist because those specific athletes increased in value... not because Kobe depreciated. The only thing that goes down for Kobe in terms of money is the amount the Lakers owe him from one year to the next. That doesn't mean he is "worth less" each year. He is just owed less money.

The Spurs and the OKC franchise. Durant was a no brainer at #2.
If you are in a big market or if you win the draft lottery. Even the lottery can be unlucky though.
Yes you would when you replace Joe Johnson with John Salmons.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It's because it's the Lakers and it's been true for over a decade. Kobe is not selling more tickets than he did when he was better. He's likely selling less but he's still good enough to be a good draw.

I'm not saying that no one cares about Kobe now but he's not nearly the draw he used to be.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

John Salmons was paid dumb money by Milwaukee, but...

John Salmons + 1-2 quality players > Joe Johnson

The Hawks are now indefinitely in NBA hell because of the Joe Johnson deal.

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I think that's easier said than done though. Atlanta basically had to choose between overpaying for a good player but limiting the future or letting him walk and then hoping that they pull off three mid-level free agents to equal him or hitting the lottery. Given that someone will overpay for the other targets it's kind of vicious cycle because of the system. All of a sudden you have to go into a season selling that you are better because of Travis Outlaw and John Salmons.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

1.) Yes they drafted future HOFers. So did Denver and Cleveland. There's more talent in this league than I think you're granting. It's not like there are 4 franchise guys and 26 teams are screwed. 12 months ago who thought Dirk was still good enough to lead the Mavs to a title this year? It's not as hard to get someone to build around as you suggest. The reason stars flee is because the team makes them. That's why Howard will leave. It's why Bron and Melo did too. It's why Duncan didn't and Durant probably won't. It's the #1 reason you don't overpay JJ and Rashard. You have to be flexible enough to build your team around that guy once you get him. The teams that don't do this well lose their stars.

2.) there's not just one winner in the draft. Guys like Rondo routinely fall to the teens and twenties.

3.) I wouldn't replace him with John Salmons, and again, no I would not have a problem explaining to my fanbase as an owner why I didn't resign JJ for $120M. That was one of the dumbest signings of the past decade and it came fresh off JJ PROVING, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he is not a franchise guy at all during that sweep against Orlando

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Not if those "quality" players were Drew Gooden and Corey Maggette

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SOLID post.

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It's quite simple actually. You explain that you didn't lock your team into a hole it couldnt improve from. You tell them that 45 win seasons and 5 seeds for half a decade doesnt cut it.

It's not that hard to stay with a team for a shitty season or two. The Bulls were near the top of the league in attendance still during the Ron Mercer/Khalad El Amin era.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I think you are ignoring the reality of the NBA. If you are a small market you're only chance is to get lucky in the lottery and pray that the player doesn't leave as soon as he can. It's very hard to come up with many teams who did it any other way outside of Detroit.
Good luck building your team around Rondo.
The media and fans would destroy you if you let JJ walk and didn't even get a player like Salmons to replace him unless you can get them on the verge of a riot like Cleveland did.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

When you miss the playoffs for the first time you'd be regretting ever saying that. We're going to suck and hope we get lucky is a terrible system and clearly a broken one. That's the ultimate point. It's unhealthy for any league to have your best option for a majority of the teams be to cross your fingers that you hit the #1 or #2 pick.

It seems to be hard for teams that don't have 6 titles in the past 20 years. Lots of empty seats all around.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Dangerous to assume that the media and fans in Hotlanta give a crap about the Hawks

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1.) We just don't see the NBA the same way. The Pacers were awesome for over a decade. Are the suns considered small market? They had a real shot. Same with the Kings a decade ago. Those teams put together a contender. Sarver destroyed his with cheapness and selling draft picks. The Maloofs destroyed theirs by that awful CWebb contract(see JJ debate) and other terrible personnel decisions. I agree you have to get lucky and get a star, but that's not as difficult as you suggest, and it's disingenuious to suggest they will leave that small market if given a good situation.

2.) You can absolutely build a team around Rondo. Boston will show us that in the upcoming years IMO.

3.) Who cares if the media blasts me? They would be idiots for doing so and I'd happily point it out.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Since there is no quantifiable way to determine what percentage of ticket sales are coming from people who just want to see Kobe, we will just agree to disagree. But I liken Kobe's status in the league to that of Jordan's in the 90's, and MJ certainly kept putting people in the seats even during his later years.

Back to the original point, while a player can receive a new contract worth less money with another team, that same player cannot make less during the span of a current contract. A person cannot naturally "lose value" like a car or a piece of machinery. They can get injured, they can get older, but that doesn't always mean they depreciate in value.

MJ in 98 was still much better than Kobe has been the past few years.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I agree, but that's a different thread.