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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:01 am 
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No I don't. Had anyone here ever heard me brag about being a sportswriter?

But I'm also not stupid, and can see when someone is clearly full of shit. You are clearly full of shit, as evidenced by you changing the debate.

FYI - I already explained why Simmons shouldn't be judged on the same playing field as real writers. And while you may dislike his style, Gladwell is an extremely well trained, well educated writer. He's one of the best at what he does in the entire industry.

Critics spend a day destroying what they couldnt do in a lifetime.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:03 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
But I'm also not stupid, and can see when someone is clearly full of shit. You are clearly full of shit, as evidenced by you changing the debate.

FavreFan's Top 5 Board Members Who Are Full of Shit.... light 'em up!

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:14 am 
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1.) Anyone who dislikes me
2.) Anyone who disagrees with me
3.) Anyone who doesn't think im an expert at life
4.) Anyone who doesn't like pre-1990 music
5.) Anyone who disagrees with me

And Kid Cairo

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:16 am 
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In reality that list would not be controversial.

Nsj, Steve, cubbiegirl, Beardown, and imu probably. With imu being the only one I like.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:28 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
No I don't. Had anyone here ever heard me brag about being a sportswriter?

But I'm also not stupid, and can see when someone is clearly full of shit. You are clearly full of shit, as evidenced by you changing the debate.

FYI - I already explained why Simmons shouldn't be judged on the same playing field as real writers. And while you may dislike his style, Gladwell is an extremely well trained, well educated writer. He's one of the best at what he does in the entire industry.

Critics spend a day destroying what they couldnt do in a lifetime.


Why is Simmons "not to be judged on the same playing field as real writers"?

Not trying to argue here, just wondering your rationale.


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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:31 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
No I don't. Had anyone here ever heard me brag about being a sportswriter?

But I'm also not stupid, and can see when someone is clearly full of shit. You are clearly full of shit, as evidenced by you changing the debate.

How have I changed the debate? Because I questioned what craftsmanship is on display at Grantland? Yes, congrats you caught me: my blunt dismissals of the work of Simmons, Klosterman, Lambert, and Gladwell was not backed up by extensive citations, nor with a journalistic pedigree. Well done.
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FYI - I already explained why Simmons shouldn't be judged on the same playing field as real writers. And while you may dislike his style, Gladwell is an extremely well trained, well educated writer. He's one of the best at what he does in the entire industry.

I'm sorry if I don't think an old cliche about sportswriting constitutes a satisfactory explanation for Simmons churning out the same old column with the same old references for years. Gladwell can be an entertaining writer, but that doesn't change the fact that he often gets the science and statistics wrong in many of the articles he writes.


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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:35 am 
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I might be wrong, but I'm almost positive he would tell you he's not a real writer in the sense Gladwell and other contributors to the site are. Sports journalism is looked at as second-tier in the industry. I've heard Simmons himself say this, Telander refer to it, and a few journalist friends I have all say it too.

In the journalism industry, the type of topics you cover are often as important as your actual writing ability when it comes to status and reputation. Because of this, and probably tons of other reasons, the best journalists often don't cover sports, especially for ESPN.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:37 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
I might be wrong, but I'm almost positive he would tell you he's not a real writer in the sense Gladwell and other contributors to the site are. Sports journalism is looked at as second-tier in the industry. I've heard Simmons himself say this, Telander refer to it, and a few journalist friends I have all say it too.

In the journalism industry, the type of topics you cover are often as important as your actual writing ability when it comes to status and reputation. Because of this, and probably tons of other reasons, the best journalists often don't cover sports, especially for ESPN.


I think for the most part I agree with this stance. I'm not professionally trained as a journalist nor do I have a journalism degree, however my limited experience in sportswriting has certainly made me mre aware of how many well-known writers are viewed by their peers.


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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:38 am 
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Gladwell has an army of editors. His science and stats are always biased to the point he's making, but they aren't wrong usually. And in case you are about to criticIze that, they are supposed to be biased. After all, he's a persuasive writer.

You changed the debate my making it about me and my ego, instead of the topic were talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:49 am 
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Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I might be wrong, but I'm almost positive he would tell you he's not a real writer in the sense Gladwell and other contributors to the site are. Sports journalism is looked at as second-tier in the industry. I've heard Simmons himself say this, Telander refer to it, and a few journalist friends I have all say it too.

In the journalism industry, the type of topics you cover are often as important as your actual writing ability when it comes to status and reputation. Because of this, and probably tons of other reasons, the best journalists often don't cover sports, especially for ESPN.


I think for the most part I agree with this stance. I'm not professionally trained as a journalist nor do I have a journalism degree, however my limited experience in sportswriting has certainly made me mre aware of how many well-known writers are viewed by their peers.


I just started those kind of classes back up after a 5 year hiatus. I dont know shit about writing either compared to what there is to know. But I do know sports writing is one of the least prestigious sections of the industry.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:57 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
Gladwell has an army of editors. His science and stats are always biased to the point he's making, but they aren't wrong usually. And in case you are about to criticIze that, they are supposed to be biased. After all, he's a persuasive writer.

The point isn't that he picks and chooses stats to make his case, it's that his statistical reasoning skills are often lacking. Pinker (who I disagree with on most topics) in a review of What the Dog Saw (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/books ... wanted=all) makes this point more generally, but these problematic inferential leaps can be find in many of his works.

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You changed the debate my making it about me and my ego, instead of the topic were talking about.

Pretty sure you made that change first by asserting that my apparent lack of a journalism background made me unqualified to raise criticisms. I simply responded in kind.


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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:57 am 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Pretty sure you made that change first by asserting that my apparent lack of a journalism background made me unqualified to raise criticisms. I simply responded in kind.
Hmmmm.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:00 am 
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Zeph and FF are locked into an epic battle. It reminds me when the Sox were done 3-0 to the Yanks and came back to win the series. Or maybe it is more like when the Allies were playing soccer against the Nazis. Did I mention I live in California but I used to live in Boston.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:06 am 
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:lol:

It really is obvious Bill is not a very talented wordsmith. But he's one of the best sports comedians I've heard, knows the NBA as well as any mainstream writer, and besides his stupid name dropping stories he still writes his columns from an average fans perspective. There's countless of sports writers in this country trying to mimick his style and failing at it constantly. If it was that easy to do, he wouldnt be nearly as popular as he is.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:52 am 
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I like Simmons, more or less. Klosterman grates on me but he's a hell of a writer. Gladwell is a Grade A Dope.

I was excited about the project but I'm a little afraid it's going to turn into something like those later episodes of Home Improvement where every episode was about upgrading some part of Tim's house. I don't need Simmons and all his buddies 24/7. I don't need to know every bet Cousin Sal places. There needs to be enough non-Simmons related writers to keep the project interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:05 am 
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Irish Boy wrote:

I was excited about the project but I'm a little afraid it's going to turn into something like those later episodes of Home Improvement where every episode was about upgrading some part of Tim's house. .


:lol: Very true. I still watch re-runs of that show whenever I catch it on.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:46 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
His science and stats are always biased to the point he's making


You've just defined "statistics".

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:04 am 
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Enjoyed Simmons column on Ryan Reynolds and Will Smith and what's wrong with Hollywood.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:08 am 
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Northside_Dan wrote:
Enjoyed Simmons column on Ryan Reynolds and Will Smith and what's wrong with Hollywood.


Yeah, the Will Smith stuff was interesting about how he and his agent basically wrote a gameplan on how to be a star but not necessarily a good actor.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:18 am 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
Northside_Dan wrote:
Enjoyed Simmons column on Ryan Reynolds and Will Smith and what's wrong with Hollywood.


Yeah, the Will Smith stuff was interesting about how he and his agent basically wrote a gameplan on how to be a star but not necessarily a good actor.


That was the only part that made it worth reading IMO. That was interesting stuff. The rest of the article I found pretty boring.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:04 am 
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Klosterman mentions what I was talking about when it comes to sports writing

Chuck Klosterman wrote:
There are countless ways to write about sports, but most nonbiographies found in that ghettoized section of your local Barnes & Noble tend to embrace one of two tracts:

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:32 am 
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Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
I find his articles on anything other than sports to be completely irrelevant and annoying. For example, his infatuation with reality television is something he shoudl probably keep to himself.

If he kept that to himself he wouldnt be Bill Simmons. He'd be some other dime a dozen ESPN writer.

I dont like the Reality show ones specifically but the Saved by the Bell vs. 90210 was good stuff.

I still like him. I remember when I first started reading him and I had insider so I was reading all the old articles. Ewing theory, Karate Kid, etc.


I think Simmons is so hated because he's successful and his style is so casual and based in pop culture, people see it as "anyone could do that, my buddy Ron knows sports and movies."


The new site kinda sucks. The same way his page on ESPN sucked for the last couple years. Like IB said, its Simmons and buddies waaaaaay too much. Im fine with him working that into stories, but it cant BE the story.


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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:52 pm 
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It's been a couple of weeks, so I think that it's fair to provide a fuller judgment.

First, the site hasn't been all Simmons + Klosterman + Cousin Sal, so that's good. Right now I count 15 authors on the front page, not counting pseudonyms who could potentially be one of those other authors, so there's nice variety. It's also nice to have a clearinghouse for writing that at least tries to be quality. It doesn't always succeed, but what does? The product is miles better than what is in a newspaper or on the ESPN website at any given time.

Second, there have been some real quality pieces thus far. I thought Klosterman on the DVR and sports was quite well written, and I'm not a huge fan of Klosterman in general.

That being said, there are some huge problems. Is Grantland a sports site? A guy site? A "things Bill Simmons likes" site? On the main page right now there are two stories about Breaking Bad, something called the "Youtube hall of fame," Justin Timberlake, and the Humblebrag twitter guy sucking all the fun out of his shtick by explaining the joke. There is quite a bit of sports coverage, of course, including admirable breadth: baseball, NBA basketball, NFL, women's soccer, WSOP, and professional wrestling. July is a dead period in sports, so I understand it's difficult to fill space, but the end result is that the site feels unfocused.

I wonder what the endgame is for the site? How many people are actually going to the main page, as opposed to getting referred to articles piecemeal style? I know that I haven't made Grantland a place I stop as I move around to the websites I read, although I've read quite a few of the articles from links.

Another concern, especially in the wake of l'Affaire Feldman, is how much separation Grantland really has from ESPN. Despite it's nominal independence, who can't help but wonder how much is being left back. Perhaps nothing. Perhaps much. Impossible to say, and that's coming from someone who has been generally pro-ESPN up until this past week.

Finally, too much of the writing is just so damn glib. I already said elsewhere that I thought Simmons's article on fixing the NBA lockout was one of the weakest I've seen from him. But there are others that are equally grating. Bill Barnwell has had some awful articles on the NFL that offer little else besides "here's a list of players I don't like." You have some authors that go for the constant Family Guy style: " [Sporting event] reminds me of [Pop Culture Reference]! Do you remember the one time [celebrity] [did something illegal]? That's just like [sporting event]? The style was liberating a decade ago, but like all templates, but it is not much less boring at this point than the 1980's newspaper columnist hackery that it was rebelling against. On the other hand, you get Very Serious People writing Articles That Will Make You Think About Sports and The Times We Live In, which is fine, I guess, but if you are going to be the NPR of sports webmagazines, don't have pieces that compare the Bulls playoff run to the time you prematurely ejaculated when you were 15.

I still give the site an overall thumbs up, despite the problems and inconsistencies. I like that it is being tried, at the very least. Maybe some of the authors will stop feeling like they are writing for America's Best Sports Writing 2012 or trying to be Bill Simmons's BFF. And hopefully Simmons will give them the freedom to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:13 pm 
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I don't even think Grantland knows what it is at this point. The writing has been both impressive and incredibly boring, but I can't single-out one writer being worse than another. I haven't paid much attention to the reality TV articles, but I have found the NFL and NBA articles pretty entertaining. I've also enjoyed the "bar conversation" mentality that Simmons and his team appear to be creating... or at least attempting to create while under the umbrella of ESPN.


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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:31 pm 
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http://deadspin.com/grantlandia/

You'd think with 13 editors they wouldn't have the number or mistakes in their articles.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:43 pm 
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DAC wrote:
http://deadspin.com/grantlandia/

You'd think with 13 editors they wouldn't have the number or mistakes in their articles.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Good to see the backlash to the backlash beginning with Klosterman's "Tanzanian marathon coverage" line today. As if people were somehow unreasonable for expecting the purview of a "sports and pop culture" website to extend north of Portland and west of Hartford. Give me a fucking break.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:49 pm 
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And it's endlessly hilarious that Simmons and Klosterman touted the hiring of Molly Lambert as some kind of coup. Literally every word she's written over there is utterly insipid tripe.

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:13 pm 
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I have no clue what your first post is talking about.

I agree with your 2nd post 100%. All her column headlines read like a TMZ or National Enquirer headline, I haven't even considered opening one up. Hopefully Simmons knows really big fans of his like me are really turned off of the site by writers like her

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 Post subject: Re: Grantland
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:35 pm 
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Klosterman continues to be the highlight of that website for me.


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