Im downloading it tonight.

But let me just ask a question

How long are we going to let this ridiculous career long charade of Jay-Z claiming to be the king of Hip hop?


Reasonable Doubt was a classic

A lot of solid albums after that.

With that said he was NEVER the best rapper in the world. Its just the ridiculous the way he claims it and almost nobody calls him on it.


Is there a person on this board (or the world) who thinks Jay-Z is the best rapper of all time?

Im Reasonably Doubtful


Rakim
Chuck D
Scarface
Guru
2Pac
Biggie
Nas
Eminem
Kanye


These are all acceptable answers...Hova is not.

He might be the most successful, most consistent, but never the best from a striclty music standpoint.


He's like Hank Aaron. Consistently one of the best never the best.


Ill probably like the album because like I said Jay Z is a great rapper and Kanye is a great producer and there's a Rza track.

But this nonsense about this No jail bars Jigga, no pies, no case
Just Hawaiian shirts, hanging with little Chase
a fan, a phony, a fake, a pussy being the king of anything has to end

_________________
You never miss your wealth, till your well went dry
Seem like only yesterday, you were here smiling
Now you gone away, but I know you in a better place
No traces of you, what can I do?
Alone and confused

I am 1 of 1.
Can't you see how long my run?
My reign knew sunshine...
...Got so many different monikers, but only one Jay.
They come, they go
Some real, some faux
some friends, some foes
But no I, goes nowhere, it's Hov




Ain't no living person can test him
Even two resting in heaven can't be mentioned in the same breath as him
Fifteen straight years, RPB might not admit it
But nobody in rap history did it, quite like I did it
If they did it I done it before, they get I had it
Got mad at it and don't want it no more
And that goes for everything from flipping that raw
Flipping whores, flipping vocal chords, don't get it twisted
Get it right, did different, did it better, did it nice
Did the impossible then did it twice - get it right

_________________

You can add these to the list of classics:

Volume 1
Volume 2
Dynasty
Best of Both Worlds
Blue Print
Black Album
Kingdom Come
American Gangster
Blue Print 3
Probably watch the throne

Greatness can't be defined by 1 or 2 albums. Greatness is base on consistently being better than everyone else. Over the last 10 years no one has been better. His sustained popularity can be matched by no one in the history of rap. You may like an album better than all of his. You may even like the style of a rapper better than his. Fact is no one has done it better or will probably ever do it better. At 41 he's still the best rapper. He could be rapping until he's 50 and would still be apart of pop culture.

There's never been a [rapper] this good for this long
This hood
Or this pop is hot
Or this strong
With so many different flows
This ones for this song
The next one I'll switch up
This one will get bit up
These fucks
To lazy to make up shit
They crazy
They don't...paint pictures
They just trace me...
...Pound for pound I'm the best to ever come around here
Excluding nobody
Look what I embody
The soul of a hustler i really ran the street
That CEO's mind
That marketing plan was me
And no i ain't get shot up a whole bunch of times
Or make up shit in a whole bunch of lines
And i ain't animated, like say a, Busta Rhymes
But the real shit you get when you bust down my lines
Add that to the fact i went plat a bunch of times
Times that by my influence
On pop culture
I supposed to be number one on everybody's list
We'll see what happens when i no longer exist

_________________

Let me make clear...Im not saying these guys are candidates for GOAT. But at one time they could have rightfully claimed to be King of hip hop (admittedly i threw GURU in because he's a favorite and he's a stretch)




IMO, Jay has never been

I'd have to say that Chuck D held the crown for a good 3 or 4 years back in the
late 80's until Fear of a Black Planet came out and faded away. Good call there.

_________________
Flew too close to the sun on wings of pastrami

I remember when Money Aint a Thing came out and I wondered who the tall oaf looking guy was that was messing up JD's song. I remember telling my friends who liked him that we wouldnt be hearing much from this Jay Z person. I should have been a record company exec...

_________________

He's never been better than everyone else. Always been one of.

He's not better than Rakim, who came out 10 years earlier.





Dre and Snoop, who were around first, disagree.




Yeah, because one of his albums is classic and the others are all very good. Its a HUGE difference.


Yeah, the style of meaningful thought provoking lyrics combines with smooth delivery and good beats.

Reasonable Doubt comes close to that.


Thats flat out ridiculous



This is the kind of non sense Im talking about

No he's not. Eminem and Kanye are both way bigger stars and better as artists.

If being a pop culture Icon is the goal, its not, than Jay-Z is the best

Rakim had a spark. It went out rather quickly

Dre is more of a legend behind the mic than he is in front of it. He puts out an album every 10 years. Snoop is a joke. The guy will do anything to make a dollar and he's not making as much as Jay-Z who has stayed true to his brand.

It's your opinion that Reasonable Doubt is the only classic. I seriously doubt many other fans of hip hop would agree.


There is no objective measurement that makes Kanye and Eminem better than Jay-Z. They would even tell you he's better. He made Kanye. Every successful rapper out right now goes to see Jay-Z so they can kiss the ring.

The guy is worth half a billion. Put him on a track with anyone and it's going to sell. You may not personally like his style/delivery (why wouldn't you)/lyrics but for 15 years he's been at the top of the game. Even with all the garbage that's being spit now he's still there


Moment Of Clarity Lyrics
Artist(Band):Jay-Z
Review The Song (3) Print the Lyrics



Send "Moment Of Clarity" Ringtones to Cell

(Woooooo)
(Yeah)
(Turn the music up turn the lights down i'm in my zone)

[Chorus]
Thank God for grantin me this moment of clarity
This moment of honesty
The world'll feel my truths
Through my Hard Knock Life time
My Gift and The Curse
I gave you volume after volume of my work
So you can feel my truths
I built the Dynasty by being one of the realest niggas out
Way beyond a Reasonable Doubt
(Yall can't fill my shoes)
From my Blueprint beginnings
To that Black Album endin
Listen close you hear what i'm about
Nigga feel my truths

[Verse One]
Pop died
Didn't cry
Didn't know him that well
Between him doin heroin
And me doin crack sales
With that in the egg shell
Standin at the tabernacle
Rather the church
Pratendin to be hurt
Wouldn't work
So a smirk was all on my face
Like damn that mans face was just like my face
So pop i forgive you
For all the shit that i live through
It wasn't all your fault
Homie you got caught
And to the same game i fault
they dont parade loss
My big brothers and so many others i saw
I'm just glad we got to see each other
Talk and re-meet each other
Save a place in Heaven
Til the next time we meet forever


The music business hate me
Cause the industry ain't make me
Hustlers and boosters embrace me
And the music I be makin
I dumb down for my audience
And double my dollars
They criticize me for it
Yet they all yell "Holla"
If skills sold
Truth be told
I'd probably be
Lyricly
Talib Kweli
Truthfully
I wanna rhyme like Common Sense
(But i did five Mil)
I ain't been rhymin like Common since
When your sense got that much in common
And you been hustlin since
Your inception
Fuck perception
Go with what makes cents
Since
I know what i'm up against
We as rappers must decide what's most impor-tant
And i can't help the poor if i'm one of them
So i got rich and gave back
To me that's the win, win
The next time you see the homie and his rims spin
Just know my mind is workin just like them
(The rims that is)

_________________

Jay has never been as good as Rakim on his worst day.
If were taking this strictly to behind the mic and taking away business and the icon status aspect, I think Jay will lose as much creedence as Dre.

Snoop will do anything for a dollar?

When's Hov's next Budweiser sponsored album coming out?


No one considers Jay Z to be NOW he's old. He's over. His lyrics are not that good. Eminem came what? 3-4 years after Jay? He's way more popular now.

But on the album thing, to define Classic, Id say it would have to be a top 50 maybe a top 100 at the most.

You think there would be 9 Jayz albums in there?

There'd be one or two in the top 50.

If the point of hip hop is to get famous and make money, then Jay has a case. If its to be the best M.C., he does not.

but just opinion obviously.


I dont really ever hear anyone name Jay as their GOAT (present company with screennames named after him excluded)

I just downloaded this earlier today.

Gave it a listen on the ride to work, only got to hear the first 5 songs or so.

It's aight, need to listen more

_________________
You never miss your wealth, till your well went dry
Seem like only yesterday, you were here smiling
Now you gone away, but I know you in a better place
No traces of you, what can I do?
Alone and confused

+1

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

RPB can't be serious right now
I'm the all time heavy weight champion of flowers
I'm leading the league in at least six statistical categories right now
Best flow, Most consistent, Realest stories
Most charisma, I set the most trends
And my interviews are hotter
Holla


Are we really comparing Budweiser giving Jay a couple of dollars for a video with all the bullshit Snoop has done after leaving Dre. He signed with No Limit and made a bunch of really bad movies. He only had 1 great album. He didn't say anything thought provoking either. If I was older I would have looked at him then like I do Lil Wayne now. I'm sorry I thought you had a good mind when it came to hip hop but when you're putting Snoop ahead of Jay I have to reconsider that.

Dre is a legend but it's like comparing Biggie and Pac to him. They don't have enough material. In front of the mic or behind it Dre has never been a bigger icon. Same with Rakim. He fell off. If your material is great people will buy it. If not you need to "sprinkle your album with something to keep the registers ringing" Pac wouldn't have been as popular if all he put out was Brenda's got a Baby or Keep Your Head Up type tracks.

I love Em and Kanye but they're not on the same level as Jay. Never will be either. A few of the people you mentioned in your first post would probably be considered better than him if they had a longer run. You're dismissing longevity like it means nothing. When we consider the all time greats in anything that's something we look at. We don't consider Gayle Sayers and Marcus Dupree the best running backs of all time for a reason.

10 number 1 albums in a row,
Who better than me?
Only the Beatles nobody ahead of me,
I crush Elvis in his blue suede shoes,
Made the rolling stones seem sweet as kool-aid too,
96, 97, 98, 99, 2000, 2001 and beyond,
02, 03, 04, 05, 06 and 7, 08, 09
Back to back double plat, I did what you want,
Men lie women lie, numbers don't,
Ain't nothing changed for me except the year it is,
I think have to send you a reminder, here it is

_________________

From my very little knowledge this is laughable if he believes this. Hova has the charisma of a goldfish

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Please show me where I said Snoop was better

Im not saying he's better only that Jay has sold out as much as anyone.

That is not up for debate. Jay Z clearly set out to be famous more than he set out to be the greatest.




Im not sure what you mean. Dre was the first and biggest star of hip hop for the first half of the 90's




Almost everyone in the world would disagree.


Longevity is fine.

Thought provoking? Are you serious?

Here's Jay's entire post Reasonalbe Doubt Career: Im rich, I used to sell crack, and Im from New York.


Ive heard you say Kingdom Come is slept on...guess why? Because its not good.

Its the same old shit he started rapping about on Lifetime and hasnt had a thought provoking rhyme since.

Kanye and Eminem are bigger than him right now and have been for some tme.

People wonder what Eminem will say, what Kanye will do. No one wonders what Jay will do, because we know. Make another slightly above average album with songs made specifically for radio talking about how he is the king of hip hop.


All the names I named are better rappers. You can celebrate the icon status. Jay has never been lyrically as good as Rakim, Eminem, Nas or Biggie. He was never as dope as 2pac and he cant produce like Dre and Kanye


Oh and I forgot Common. He's waaaay ahead of Jay lyrically.


If being in the top 10 or 15 rappers for a long period of time is what youre looking for Jay is your man

If were talking about the GOAT...he's not in the conversation.

If all his albums are slightly above average why does he have 10 #1 albums? Why is his music still be played in clubs? Why are new and old artist still paying to get him on their tracks? You would expect him get the treatment like rap legends Nas and Scarface. Especially if all he's doing is saying the same thing for the past 14 years. People would get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again. You don't consistently gross $30M+ a year if you're a has been. You don't sell out the Garden in a day either. His tickets just sold out again. You may need to brush up on your Jay-Z history. I respect your hip hop knowledge but you're the only guy I've ever heard say Kanye and Eminem are better than Jay. Kanye tries to be Jay and wishes his "Big Brother" would play with him. Name a track that Ye and Jay were on that Jay didn't own?

_________________

Take what the Forbes figured and the figure more...



Jay-Z and Kanye West are already poised to seize the top of the charts with Watch the Throne. But before the final sales figures are even tabulated, the superstar hip-hop duo are already rap's top cops, thanks to their #1 and #3 ranking on the Forbes Hip-Hop's Top Earners list.

Entrepreneur Jigga earned the first spot with more than $37 million in earnings, just outpacing another serious multi-hyphenate, Diddy, who was no joke just behind at $35 million. It's the fourth time Jay has worn the Cash Kings crown in the past five years. Kanye was a bit further behind at #3 with a not-too-shabby $16 million.

How did Jay do it? Partly from the earnings for his Blueprint 3 Tour, a major 10-year, $150 million deal with Live Nation, as well as his ownership stakes in the NBA's New Jersey Nets, his 40/40 club chain and the ad firm Translation. Interestingly, this also marks the first time he's outearned wife Beyoncé since they married in 2008.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/166882 ... rbes.jhtml

_________________

Dig A Hole
Lost One
Kingdom Come
Beach Chair
Show Me What You Got
30 Something
Hollywood
I Made It
Minority Report

_________________

Pop Music is a great way to be popular and Jay has done that very well.

But lets not pretend album sales make a great artist. See Lil Wayne


Im not gonna have the Kanye argument. Ill just say it seems to me he's a bigger name at this point. But he's not one of my favorites so Im not gonna argue for him.

But if you wanna talk about who owned what

And Eminem murdered you on your own shit

Double owned by Nas and Eminem simultaneously.

Anyway, like I originally said, I compare him to Hank Aaron. Obviously thats not a slight. He's been real good for a long time. But never the best.


And if you think Eminem has never been bigger than Jay Z than youre in denial or werent paying attention. Since his second album came out Eminem has been the biggest thing in rap. When 8 Mile came out, more of the same.

Eminem was undisputed.

Last few albums. Could have added one or 2 more but I didn't like the tracks.

Lost One
Beach Chair
Say Hello
Fallin
Ignorant Shit
No Hook
Pray
American Dreamin
Young Forever

_________________

If you're not selling records then you probably aren't that good or you're not putting out what people want to hear. As the Forbes list shows Lil Wayne ain't making much money with his garbage.

Em killed Renegade and Nas was reborn with Ether. Before Relapse Eminem had not put out a great album since the Eminem Show. Encore was just "okay" IMO. He also took 5 years off too. People forgot about him. That makes it 1 great album in 7 years. He also has the best producer ever in his corner. That can't hurt. We've seen what happens to artist when they leave Dre. Jay always stayed on the scene even when he didn't put out an album for a few years. You heard him on the radio just about everyday doing a collaboration with someone. Dame left him too and he's still put out great music. He did get an assist from Diddy with American Gangster.

_________________

What did you think about the album?

_________________

I think it would be nice if it werent removed from Mediafire. The few minutes this week ive been at home able to try and download it it was removed. I looked a bit, but I dont like going to sites Ive never heard of.


Anyway, I did dl the tracks "Otis" and "New Day" Those are both good. Love Kanye on Otis

Write my curses in cursive


Anyway, Ive got like 5 Jay albums on the mp3. Its not like I dont like him. Its just a different idea of what makes the best

Ok, Ive listened to the album a couple times thru.

Its good.

It also just reinforced all my feelings about these two. Kanye is a production genius. I mean the beats on this album are fucking sick and theyre fresh. Nothing that sounds old or like something you've heard before.

But Jay is bein Jay...talkin about 88, talking about runnin New York, being a celebrity and selling drugs.

I feel like we learned everything about Jay from Reasonable Doubt. I mean we found out:

He was a huge drug dealer in 88 and had tons of money
He runs the neighborhood/borough
He's all about the money and he has lot of it


After that there were a few party albums where he added I get bitches to the usual formula.

I mean I was intently trying to hear something thought provoking out of him. Its just not there.

Taking away his name recognition, just looking at the flow, I can easily think of 10 rappers that would have murdered those beats better than Jay.

This isnt hyperbole, I think Inspectah Deck, Az, Royce, Tyler the creator, and Rakim would have all been better on this album.

None of them is currently as popular as Jay Z for a variety of reasons. All of them are better rappers right now.


But taking away the who is the GOAT argument, its a good album. He probably should have had more Kanye production earlier in his career (I mean even more than he did. Its not a coincidence that Takeover was the best track on Blueprint)


But I think Kanye takes a big step with this album.
His flow is getting better and the beats are in Primo's league now.

I'm not sure what you expected from an album titled "Watch the Throne". Of course Jay-Z and Kanye were going to brag about what they came from and what they've accomplished. The album was more than that though. Taste in all music is subjective but you appear to be taking it to an extreme. I pointed you to tracks from his last few albums that you may have missed. Also his best produced album recently was American Gangster. Diddy produced that. I love the album. I wasn't sure how the give and take with Jay and Ye would turn out but I think it was borderline great. That being said many other fans hate the album because of the beats. Also if your idea of thought provoking is "write my curses in cursive" then you should love Lil Wayne. You know real G's move in silence like lasagna.

_________________

Welcome To The Jungle
New Day
Murder to Excellence
No Church for the Wild

Take another listen to those. You may find a message in them. Also when I think of someone that brags about what they have Kanye is at the top of the list. Unfortunately he has a lot less to brag about than Jay. Having 11 #1 albums in a row objectively says who the GOAT is.

Holla, King Hov, I’m exactly what the fuck you think
11 in a row, Bill Russell rings, Michael Jordan swag
Y'all think Michael Jordan bad
N*gga I got a 5 more rings than Michael Jordan had
Elvis has left the building now I’m on the Beatles ass
N*ggas hear Watch The Throne, yeah it’s like the Beatles back
Bey Bey my Yoko Ono, Rih Rih complete the family
Imagine how that’s gon' look front row at the Grammy's
Fuck your awards like Eddie Murphy’s couch
The Roc is in the building we should have stayed in the house

_________________

Yeah but only one of them has done it so long that it just doesnt even register anymore.



Thats fine. Thats your opinion. I have mine. Ive heard all his albums. If I have a chance, Ill give the tracks you sugeest another listen.



Yeah and a lot of people like T.I. and Lil John and some of them say Lil Wayne is the greatest rapper ever. I dont care what other people think. I listen for me.

The Beats are awesome. Lots of people arent comfortable with anything that they arent used to. They want the simplistic beats of The City is Mine or Golddigger. These beats are better and more than that. The Church track and the Otis one are awesome.





Who said it was thought provoking? It was a good line.

Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive

I think he's talking about a middle class nobody becoming a super star.

But please dont talk about thought provoking if your idea of thought provoking rap is Jay Z.

He's fine. Ive never heard anyone credit him with being thought provoking but you. Ive heard very few call him the best.

The fact is most knowledgable hip hop fans would put at least 4 guys ahead of him.

Your acting like Im going out on a limb by saying he's not the GOAT.

Not too many people have him as the GOAT.

He's just not. He might be the most successful and popular. Congratulations. Doesnt make him the best. Just means he went commerical better than anyone else.

You might like him the best. Thats fine. My favorite rapper is Ghostface (who puts out as many albums as Jay with better content) but I dont assume he's the best just because he's my favorite.

Any music is like that. U2 is my favorite band. Theyre a good comparison for Jay Z. Been around forever, breaking records on sales and tours consistently. That doesnt mean The Edge is the best guitar player in the world or Bono the best singer. Theyre not. But they are the most commerically successful.


Look we'll just have to disagree. Id like to hear some other people's opinions on this. You and I have pretty much hit all the points.

I believe Matches Malone and K.I. got into a Jay Z debate a while back.

Thats one of the most ridiculous things you've ever written here.

There is no way you believe that.

You think popularity = quality?

Some artists chose not to sell out like Jay did. Theyre music is better.

Oh and BTW, 2 pac and Eminem both have sold more records.

So I guess theyre objectively better

As of Nov/2010

just got around to coppin this album. so far i like it. Jay is Jay. If there ever was an album to take it to the next level lyrically this was it but he didnt.

Kanye is the best producer in hip hop. If anyone still had doubts about that then this album should have erased them. His mic skills keep improving and he outshined Jay on quite a few tracks.

p

_________________
"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."

As usual (it seems), I agree with Hernandez. I thought Jay would step up his game on this one like maybe having a little friendly competition with Kanye (see Bad Meets Evil), but that wasn't the case. And yes, Ye is getting better at everything wich is crazy to me becuase he was already ridiculous...

_________________
This is my signature...