I think Cooper is good, but also think he is a total blowhard and that was the source of Keyser's guy info.

Cooper has guys get back to basics and throw hard strikes, let the other team get themselves out, don't put them on.

It's a really good short term formula for bringing guys back, getting them confidence, etc.

Where it does fall short is in the long term when other teams get a book on guys and see the simple patterns, create scouting reports and teams are ready for Sergio Santos, Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks.

Back to the point though. Coop never got an offer from KC and he never went to Kenny with any either. Then he ordered another Vodka.

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"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

Uh...every single MLB team has the same gameplan against just about all relievers- "If he falls behind 1-0, 2-0, sit on the heater"

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OK, Frank

Coop is a great pitching coach and his relievers have been consistant throughout the whole year. Happy?

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"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

OK, bigfan.
I never said that.

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Feel free to point out the areas in which Don Cooper is lacking, if any?

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"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

Never have I seen gd wear such White Sox blinders.

You are crazy. Every pitching coach has success stoires like that.

Ill take this case by case

Loiaza had ONE good year. Where was Coop's magic in year 2?

Contreras is a good one for him

Humber is a late blooming top draft pick, as is Thornton. Its no shock they became good. To attribute this to Cooper is ridiculous, Humber was a first rd pick.



Floyd? Are you joking? Floyd is a mediocre pitcher, same as he was when they got him. Santos will be a sucess if he comes close to Marmol, do you give Larry Rothschild similiar props?

Sale was effectively pitching in the majors months after he was drafted....You really thing the short time he spent with Cooper mattered?

Of the 8 pitchers you listed 5 were first rd picks, Contreras is one of the best pitchers ever (considering his time )

So you are just listing any good pitcher and giving that credit to Cooper?

I guess my standards for pitching coaches are a little higher. Guys like Dave Duncan, Leo Mazzone who make guys like Ryan Franklin, Todd Wellemeyer, Jason Marquis, and a broken down Mike Hampton look good.

Its nice that Cooper can devolop first rd picks though.

Yes credit him for Garland's 2 good years, ignore the previous mediocre to below average years under Coop's wing

rpb is quickly becoming the "everything the White Sox do is just lucky" guy.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

A lot of that had to do with Jerry Manuel yanking him from the game as soon as he got into trouble. Ozzie let him pitch in 2004, and it paid dividends in 2005 and 2006.

Thornton was awful in Seattle and on his way out the door. Not to mention that all the Sox gave up for him was their own bust in Joe Borchard. Humber was a high draft pick and was part of the Johan Santana trade. So yes, he had talent but he was with his 3rd team in 4 years and could barely crack the MLB roster. Then he has a borderline All Star first half for the White Sox?

Certainly that is luck, rpb. Coop had nothing to do with that...

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Please dont make things up because I rightfully pointed out that Kenny Williams gambled his ass off in 05 and the gambles paid off.

Most baseball fans and white sox fans agree with me.

You already lost that battle, dont bring that up here where it has no relevance.

I said nothing about LUCK. All I said is Cooper is not one of the Elite pitching coaches, I dont put him with Duncan and Mazzone. I doubt any non White Sox fan does.

And May i remind you that we are posting in a thread that basically was started to say...

Cooper gave Kenny a Me or Ozzie ultimatum and Kenny chose Coop


do you know how ridiculious that is?

First of all, the Joe Borchard thing is irrelvant. What do you have an auto reaction posting that from other Pro Kenny arguments?

As far as Humber and the Word LUCK which I never used...





But you are doing exactly what I said. Coop gets credit for the good and absolved of the bad.

EDIT: I dont put a lot of stock in pitching coaches anyway. The good ones mostly stay out of the way (As HawkHarrellsonish as that sounds....its true)

Pretty much every one of your thoughts on the White Sox I've read has been bashing someone for something. Classify it however you want. In this very thread, you questioned whether Cooper was even any good. Sorry, but you've been a White Sox basher for a while.
Why is that ridiculous? Coop was tired of working for Ozzie and was going to leave unless Ozzie was leaving. I don't think it was a choice between the two. It was that Kenny knew Ozzie was gone and wanted to keep Cooper. I don't think Cooper forced the change. I think Cooper stayed because of the change.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Rick, Im sorry that you dont follow baseball as close as you follow other sports.

I dont know what else to tell you. Kenny gambled and it paid off in 05. There was a bigger "Everything coming together" aspect to that team than most. Im sorry that you dont remember the offseason going into 05 and how Pods, Dye, Politte, and Hermanson were thought of.

You are so blinded by Sox fandom, that you consider questioning Kenny Williams and saying Don Cooper is not an elite pitching coach is "bashing the Sox"

Do you know how ridiculous that is?

Like I said, this thread makes it seem like Cooper is important enough to fire a manager....he is not. Thats why I said where is the evidence?

rogers park IMU.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

What is bad though? If anything, a lot of the bad relief pitching is from Ozzie mis-managing the bullpen. I'm not saying Cooper does everything good, but he has far far far more good than bad pitchers on his resume.

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My post is considered masculine in Europe.

It's long been reported that they didn't get along. Before making a move, Cooper told Kenny that he wouldn't be back if Ozzie was staying. When Cooper found out that Ozzie was not staying, he didn't have to leave. It really is that simple.

It wasn't exactly a secret that Ozzie's job was in jeopardy. Cooper was just saying "If you are getting rid of Ozzie, let me know and I won't leave".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

99.8% of GM's in all sports do the same thing.

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Except Theo Epstein, who did it by his amazing use of Sabermetrics and not outspending every team not called the Yankees by at least $27 million dollars.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Thats reasonable and how the thread started but then Keyser went so far to say this....

That seems a little much.

Anyway, I think the mystique around most pitching coaches is bullshit.

Frank your comment is a little silly. Obviously, there are degrees of gambles.


But, you guys are certainly entitled to your opinions.

Ive had other white sox fans agree with me on the 05 thing. Maybe you guys are smarter than them.

Almost definitely.

It's not a disagreement as to whether or not his gambles paid off. It's a disagreement as to whether or not that's different than most others. Unless you've got a massive payroll you'll need your offseason moves to almost all work out to win.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Rick, would you admit that some championship teams have more of a right place right time/ everything coming togeher effect than others?

But you cant admit that signing a broken down Jermaine Dye, trading for Podsednik, signing Hermanson and Politte were gambles.

Those are a bunch of veterans coming off bad years who had HUGE parts in the Sox winning.

Of course, and some were just more talented than everyone else like some of those Yankees teams.

However, even those teams need things to come together. I don't see very many championship teams where you look and say "Most of the offseason moves they made didn't work, and things didn't really come together, but they still won it all".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yes, but I do not think that was the case with the '05 Sox as much as you make it out to be or as much as you want it to be.

Pods and Pollitte were probably way beyond what anybody thought for the Sox in '05. But Pods was pretty much a non-fact after the AS break when he went on the DL. Hermanson was signed as a setup guy. Shingo failed so he stepped in and had a monster 3-4 months. That happens with bullpens. Guys will be lights out one year, and have a 4.90 ERA the next.

The '05 team was built around pitching a defense. They knew the power would be there (Dye, Konerko, Everett, to a certain extent Crede) were probably penciled in for 20+HRs a piece. But the starting rotation that year was the biggest strength of that team. Yes the 'pen was great, but I believe they threw the fewest amount of innings in the AL because the starters were so damn good. If Kenny gambled with anything it was the age old addage that "pitching and defense wins Championships"

So that is how he built his team and it worked out. Hell on paper the '06 Sox were arguably better than the '05 club going into things and while that year's offense was awesome, the pitching was not as good and that is why they didn't make the playoffs that year.

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Dye, no. Podsednik, no. Hermanson, yes, but he didn't matter in the playoffs, and all middle relievers are gambles. You throw a bunch out and hope they are good.

One bad year doesn't mean that they are a gamble. You are simply thinking that a new place will result in better results.

A gamble is when you sign a guy who was never any good and he becomes an all star. Podsednik and Dye were more calculated then that.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This is new information to me. I've never read anywhwere that Cooper ever said he was gone if Ozzie was coming back. Is there a link to anything?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

But some teams have one middle reliever have a big year or one broken down OF have a nice comeback.

In 05, more gambles paid off than most.

Politte
Dye
Podsednik
A.J.
Hermanson

All worked out better than even Kenny himself would have expected.

I would say every team gambles ever year with the middle relief. The '05 Sox got more than most out of a collection of misfits. I don't think what Dye, Pods, and AJ did, was unexpected. In fact, I don't even think Podsednik had a very good season. There aren't many guys with that many at-bats who ever drove in less runs and he didn't even score that many really.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don