its a bad deal. If it was just for $10mil a year as you stated, ok. But when you figured that they had to spend $50million just to talk to the guy, it becomes a back deal. You need to adjust you comment to reflect his true cost-- about $18-19mil per year.

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Yeah was thinking it was all included, but still. 3 playoff wins a world series win and 18-3 the next year.

Not a great deal now, but when a guy is a MAJOR part of you winning the World Series...hard to criticize that signing.

It is? $80million for a guy with 30 wins over 3 seasons. I think its hard NOT to criticize that.

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trying to figure out why you would accept one bad season and reject one atrocious season when my statement was "since he came to Boston"

2 years, 375 innings, 219 earned runs for an ERA of 5.14...that is only using the basic numbers. I assume I could show he was much worse using advanced.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

RPB is right on this one. Essentially, all of the huge/long-term deals in baseball end up being bad contracts - it's just what level of bad for each player.

All of these players made more than $16M this past season, as part of a long-term deal. All of them have been considered bad deals at some point during their current contracts - just that the level of bad varies:

A-Rod
Vernon Wells
Johan Santana
Ryan Howard
Carlos Beltran
Carlos Lee
Soriano
Zambrano
Tori Hunter
Barry Zito
Jason Bay
Beckett
AJ Burnett (Glorious)

The similarity between all of them is that they are in large markets and the GM's had the green light to sign them.
Good Dolphin is essentially arguing.................nothing in this case.

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Nope. He is still a postive number on WAR even with last years plunge. He's been bad, but not the worst. And its not a cummaltive league. His season in 2010 was decent and helped the team. 2011 was awful.


Still waiting on another GM without bad contracts and if there are none why would you list his horrible free agent signings like its a detriment?

Do you think Red Sox fans would undo that if they could?

A MAJOR part of winning a world series.

I'd like to make a new list, but I'm gonna need some help.
The following is a list of players who have received 6 yr.+/$100M + contracts, and they were actually considered good contracts. This list is not for "adequate" or "acceptable" returns on the investment - it is only for the good ones:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

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I'm with RPB on this one. I dont care how it gets done, if they win a WS I will be happy however it happens. Even if it leaves the team with some bad end of deal contracts.

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Pujols current contract would qualify I think. Thats about it.

trying to figure out why you would accept one bad season and reject one atrocious season when my statement was "since he came to Boston"

2 years, 375 innings, 219 earned runs for an ERA of 5.14...that is only using the basic numbers. I assume I could show he was much worse using advanced.[/quote]
Nope. He is still a postive number on WAR even with last years plunge. He's been bad, but not the worst. And its not a cummaltive league. His season in 2010 was decent and helped the team. 2011 was awful.


Still waiting on another GM without bad contracts and if there are none why would you list his horrible free agent signings like its a detriment?[/quote]

You've now come to the point that 2010 was decent. You are talking yourself into believing this argument.

Why would I have to provide evidence of an argument that I never made. I am reviewing Epstein's work.

Finally, understand this review was limited to only one year of his work. There is plenty of more evidence.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

The difference between any of these and the three I cited: the three players Epstein signed haven't lived up to those salaries at any point during the current contract. I'll grant you small sample size on Jenks and Crawford.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Dolphin is changing his story.

You stated he has had some horrible free agent signings as a detriment.

That would suggest there are some GMs who are better at signing FA.

Name 1


And you reviewed 2 years of his work. Yes, 215 inn and a 4.40 era is decent in the AL east.

Beckett, Howard and Santana could argue they have had years that lived up to it.

The rest have not.

Beckett was Epstein's move btw

It does not suggest that.

You want a review of 2010 signings? I'll have to take a little look.

2010 was a nice year with Beltre, Scuttaro and Cameron and Lackey. Cameron was overpaid, but it was a one year deal unlike Lackey.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Alex Rodriguez?
Torrii Hunter had two great years
Ryan Howard

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Well then why list it when reviewing him, if its par for the course?

Isnt that like saying "Well ya know Pujols makes outs like 65% of the time"

Every person is evaluated by his own work. There isn't a grading curve.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Only in Fan Graphs could a pitcher with an ERA of 6.41, a WHIP of 1.62, and 5 2/3 innings per start be considered a plus to your roster.

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Ideally, but when you are specifically competing against a finite number of competitors, comparisons are generally a good way of evaluating talent.

I wholly disagree both logically and from experience.

However, you want a comparison with another GM? Well baseball america breaks down the relative success of the Red Sox FA activity for the year with that of the Yankees. You can look for the article as I can't seem to link it. It concludes the Red Sox spent $77 million on 2 wins. The Yankees spent $82.6 on 20.

I don't necessarily agree with their conclusions and as I said I don't compare.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

But its clear they do.


I just want to know what you think those few bad deals mean overall in your evaluation of Bernst....I mean Epstein. Comparitive or not.

Theo's hiring has exposed how baseball-dumb the Chicago media is. His philosophies are the philosophies of every GM. Consistent terminology throughout the different levels of the organization?? Wow revolutionary. Without having the 2nd highest payroll in the game and a juiced up Manny Ramirez somebody else is the new GM of the cubs today.

Apparently his hiring is also exposing how baseball-dumb a lot of Chicago fans are.

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I think you are misunderstanding sabermetrics and how long its been around and youre putting way too much stock in Sabrmetrics as if that is Epstein's only attribute.


Also, there is no such thing as a "Moneyball" team. Sabermetrics is not one thing. Its the continuing quest to find better statistics.

Not OBP good, steals bad as some people like to simplify it.

I think I have a fair understanding of sabermetrics. Theo has proprietary stats he looks at, guess what so does every other team. Theo's main competitive advantage has been money to spend - not his philosophies. Also, those World Series Red Sox teams really raise an eyebrow when it comes to PED's.

Certainly they were on PED's and the money definitely helped.

I think his best attribute is devoloping players. That has nothing to do with money or PED's

No they don't. It wasn't the point of the article. I just wanted to bring in something I read that was apropos to your wishes.

I thought I have been clear that I think it is a weakness. He clearly does as he brought it up in his news conference for his new team. Red Sox fans seem to think it is from my perusal of sonsofsamhorn. As an owner, going ahead, it would give me some reluctance to simply open the checkbook for him. He showed a strength in building internally. If I were Ricketts, that is why I would have hired him.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Ahhh White Sox nation lives up to the steroetype of caring more about hating the Cubs than they do enjoying their own team.
Although looking at recent events...cough hs hitting coach vs Theo and friends cough.... and the direction each organization is headed I think I understand.
PS I don't think Nolan Ryan would have beat up Theo as well.

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Kenny Williams fell for the banana in the tailpipe