http://www.suntimes.com/sports/9425426-419/don-cooper-rubbed-sox-wrong-way-jake-peavy-in-particular.html

a handful of Sox pitchers who felt betrayed by the way pitching coach Don Cooper conducted business last season.

“He was in survival mode for the first five months, and then all of a sudden when he got his contract [extension], he was back to ‘good ol’ Coop,’ ’’ one pitcher said recently. “They preach to us to act a certain way in a contract year, and you have a coach who couldn’t even lead by example. That rubbed a lot of us the wrong way.

“He treated a lot of us differently before that.’’

“That’s exactly right,’’ Danks said. “Things need to be fixed. I’m easygoing, I didn’t have anything with anyone, but I know Jake and Coop need to both sit down and get on the same page.

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"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

If forced between choosing sides between Jake Peavy and Don Cooper, I'll drink cyanide.

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Only in HOOTERVILLE (thanks Bob) would a pitching coach be such a firestorm. At what point is the hassle not worth it anymore?

When they start pitching like the Cubs.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I KNEW bigfan would have a thread started about this.

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Jake Peavy? Really?

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Didn't Cooper cover Peavy's ass for pretty much the entire season?

White Sox pitching as a whole has been average under Coop

I'm pretty sure that isn't really the case by whatever objective measure you want to use.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

White Sox MLB ranking in defensive independent ERA under cooper

02: 12th
03: 12th
04: 17th
05: 2nd
06: 22nd
07: 24th
08: 16th
09: 7th
10: 25th
11: 30th (last)



Average ranking: 16.7

Defense independent ERA???? You've got to do better than that.

That's the thing about stats. They can be spun anyway anyone wants. I suppose DIPS is attempting (and failing, I would suggest) to address only those things a pitcher can "control". There are so many holes in this thought process I could author a Sinicalyptic treatise. But you already know that, so there isn't any need for me to do so.

Let's look at things Cooper might have some control over. (Obviously the talent level of his charges isn't one of those things.) For example, how do the Sox stack up in pitcher's days on the disabled list during Cooper's tenure?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

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If you don't judge my do-rag, I won't judge your red flag

I put zero faith in any stat created by a McCracken.

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What are you talking about?

You asked for an objective measurement. Would you prefer Good Ol' ERA?

Because the results are largely the same.


What would you use? And please get DAYS on the DL shit outta here. Way too many variables there to credit the pitching coach.


Are you saying TEAM ERA is not a good way to judge a pitching cocah?

and if so, what would you use?


Also, let's remember my statement was "White Sox pitching under Coop"




You really think the White Sox have been especially good in the pitching department since 02?

Weak

Well, first of all, I don't think days on the DL has anymore variables than any other statistic. The fact is the White Sox pitchers have been healthy over the course of ten seasons under Don Cooper to such a degree that it defies luck.

Anyway, why would ERA (the old-fashioned type you sneer at or your obviously favored defense independent type) be a proper analytic to use when some teams play half their games in parks that are radically more hitter-freindly than others?

I would look at things like starter's workloads, bullpen effectiveness, etc.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Certainly better than average.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

A pitcher's personal habits, body type, innings on the arm, maturity (farnsworth), IQ (Remlinger) all play a role.

Is it Cooper's fault Jake Peavy is a little bitch?

Absolutely not.


That is why I used DIPS.



More variables here. Guillen left Garland in, Manuel took him out. You're gonna give and take credit away from Cooper for that?



So you have no real numbers? You just think he's good and guess that certain extremely sketchy stats MAY show that?


DIPS is a good way to judge team pitching.

According to the numbers....

White Sox pitching has been largely average under Coop.

Weak[/quote]
Weak is Cub fans obsession with the Sox. Last time I checked 6<103.

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If you don't judge my do-rag, I won't judge your red flag

Not according to the numbers.

According to the numbers they are a little below average.

Answer- not very many.

And if you take away Peavy and a freak line drive off the head of Humber, it would be miniscule compared to all other MLB teams.

I agree with Orr, overall they have been better than just average for the most part under Cooper. In '07 the bullpen was awful and I would say that is more on Kenny. This year the pitching was pretty bad at times. In 2006 they were not very good, but they also scored a ton of runs and were able to win games 12-8, 10-6, etc. Doesn't help the ol' ERA much but still can rack up the W's.

Also, its pretty clear that Ozzie did a lot of dumb things with the bullpen which further skewed the ERA over most of Cooper's time.

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Weak is Cub fans obsession with the Sox. Last time I checked 6<103.[/quote]
Congrats. The White Sox having a better recent history of WS than the Cubs has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Weak troll.

Yeah if you just take away all the injuries they've been very healthy




None of that changes my statement

White Sox pitching under Coop has been largely average.


Maybe they suck and Coop's magic wand made them average but either way the numbers show what they show.

Weak trolling is that half the threads in this section are started by Cub fans and every single one is slanted. It's all the same thing: Kenny sucks, JR sucks, Coop sucks, Farm system sucks, Hawks annoying, etc. There is no objective analysis or debate. Just the same ol' well my team has sucked forever so let me shit on yours.

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If you don't judge my do-rag, I won't judge your red flag

Peavy, who was hurt when they got him is the big one. Other than that, you will not find very many DL stints by a Sox pitcher in the last 8-10 years. Look it up. Very very very few compared to other teams.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Well than you need to go into those threads.

Right now we are currently discussing, exchanging, and debating the merits of the actual numbers

Pretty much the textbook definition of "Objective analysis"


Weak.

Im sure that's true since you and JORR are hanging Coop's hat on it.

I just think the wording was off.

You cant take away injuries. A lot of them are of the "freak" variety...like ALL women

It wasn't directed at you, just the one big Cub(sox) fan who does the opposite of what you are doing.

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If you don't judge my do-rag, I won't judge your red flag

Of course, it’s difficult to apportion credit here. We can’t say, with any degree of certainty, that the White Sox have learned how to prevent pitching injuries; perhaps they’ve simply learned to avert them, by identifying the pitchers most likely to suffer them and then avoiding those marked men like the plague. Still, either achievement would represent a significant addition to the sum of baseball knowledge, and could help to explain why the White Sox have occasionally constituted a blind spot for PECOTA.

However, even if the White Sox have cracked a crucial sequence of the pitching injury code, we might not want to christen Cooper the league’s Most Valuable Pitching Coach just yet. Check out how the team’s non-pitchers have done in the injury department:





Coop is good at keeping them healthy and White sox pitching has been largely average under him.