So really this turns out to be a semantic argument of what "Clearly" meant? ok.

I don't think anyone here would say Z was better than Buehrle.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Fair enough. You can see how I thought that by your wording though.



Yeah, I think Wins is a bad stat in small samples but over a 10-15 year career it usually bears out accurate results.

The more esoteric stats (WAR, win shares, etc.) aside, what do you think is better for judging a starting pitcher? Those numbers are telling you a whole lot about a guy.

I'm not arguing that Buehrle isn't by far the guy you'd want on your team for all kinds of reasons, but on a strict basis of performance, it's a very close call between these guys. Zambrano has a better winning percentage on teams with a worse winning percentage. That does tell us something about how he performed.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

To be fair, years ago (07-08) I would have made the argument. Buehrle was starting his descent from his great 05 and Zambrano looked to be finally getting some consistency.

Obviously its gone the other way since then

The only numbers you need to know:

Fair Market Value for Buehrle is 14+ million per year

FMV for Zambrano is somewhere around 3 million and only for one year

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I think pitchers are very hard to judge. Because what do you really use? If a great pitcher is on a bad team, he loses out on wins perhaps because he's got no offense behind him. Does Maddux have a great k/9? Not really, not when compared to Randy Johnson, but he's still one of the greatest ever, isn't he? Would Kerry Wood be a better pitcher than maddux? no, and so you can't use K/9.
Although they're still a bit skewed, I like WHIP and BB/9 as pitchet statistics. I think they're probably this most concentrated on what you're really trying to achieve as a pitcher, low hits and walks.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

But we are comparing careers, not current value

Well then no Cub pitcher's career stats are complete without including the underrated simulated game/towel throwing record.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Yeah, it's complicated. It's a complicated game. Although Maddux isn't considered a "strikeout pitcher" and he certainly isn't a Ryan or a Johnson, his K/9 is still pretty high. I don't believe he ever led the league in Ks, but I'm pretty sure he was second at least once. He struck out more than most people think. Part of that is because he was so efficient he was able to last deep into games. He also had the advantage of facing the pitcher two or three times per game. I think that's often overlooked when comparing guys across leagues.

I think WHIP is critical for relievers. But for starters things get murkier. The current conventional wisdom is that "a pitcher's job is to prevent runs". I would say a starting pitcher's job is to allow less runs than the pitcher(s) he is facing. I watched a lot of Orlando Hernandez the year he was with the Sox. And there were often guys that he just refused to face. He wouldn't pitch to them. That resulted in a higher WHIP, but he usually got out of the inning by getting the guy he was comfortable pitching to.

I think over enough time, a starter's W/L record is going to tell you pretty much all you need to know about him. Aaron Sele might be an exception. But what difference does it make? If the guy was lucky, I'll take lucky.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Grampa El Duque was AWESOME the first several weeks of '05 for the Sox.

Then Grampa Contreras took over

_________________

Contreras is my favorite player ever. He was an awesome pitcher. I think it's a shame we didn't get to see his whole career played in the big leagues. I have no doubt he'd be a first ballot Hall of Famer. He's Satchel Paige fifty years later.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Major League service time:

Mark Buehrle- 11.078

Carlos Zambrano- 10.022

Keep trying to justify your ignorance.

Zambrano has been a starter for 9.5 years

Buehrle has been a starter for 11 years.

That is one of the fond memories of Zambrano. That he was never part of the towel throwing team.

No, he was on the Gatorade cooler tossing squad.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

His life should be a movie

My favorite Z memory is the grand slam he gave up to Carlos Quentin, and the $15million is he getting from the Cubs to pitch for the Marlins


Clearly its gone the other way since then.

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Cool

Clearly its gone the other way since then.[/quote]
Yeah, that's what I said

he waived this and got a 100K bonus if he wins comeback player of the year

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

Yep Biggie posts more in the Sox section than you do in the Cubs

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Wow. Ozzie might have been a sleezy guy. He seems to have been tampering around with Miami before he was done with the Sox. He was tampering with Zambrano too I think.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

So far though he's probably helped the Sox and Cubs more than the Marlins so it's not a big deal.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I was hoping they just keep BigZ. This was his "Money" year if he wanted big cash going forward. That being said , Theo is using the same strategy I said they should use with Soriano. Replace him with a low cost option who actually might perform better than the high priced guy he replaced. You have to pay out 15 million anyway you look at it,but now you have a guy who is a "plus" in the clubhouse and maybe on the field,too.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

Where is this coming from?

If he was good for the Cubs this year, his option would have vested and the Cubs would be stuck with him another year.

Your right. I always beleive you have a chance with decent pitching. Who's to say though the Cubs didn't upgrade the pitching with this trade,anyway? I hope that's the case.

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

Are you serious or what is this?

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

So now we're down to 1.5 years difference (I guess the other .5 year is just ignored) and a 14.6 difference in career WAR covering a long stretch of time. Carreer WAR is a very good indicator of Buehrle's supremacy over Zambrano.

A few years ago I thought Z was better and that it wasn't close. Things have changed since then. I still believe Z has better stuff for whatever that's worth.

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No, it's not

Everyone here can see that. You fucked up. Just admit it.

Did you wanna also include the 7.1 innings Zambrano pitched in 2001 as if its equal to a full year?

Is it the first grade level math you are having a problem with?


Im flattered that you've spent hours trying to understand WAR so you can discuss baseball with those of us who know it, but it seems like your understanding it less and less

Buehrle made 45 starts before Zambrano became a starter. Its not reasonable to use the stats compliled during that season in comparison. It is flat out dumb

And using WAR for a year a pitcher only started for half the year renders the stat pretty meaningless. But even including the half year, your numbers are way off.