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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:03 pm 
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They only have a year difference in service time and they've both played for 10+ years. So when comparing the two you're trying to ignore the early part of their careers because Buehrle was good and Zambrano was bad. Got it.


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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:06 pm 
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Not a WAR guy,just going by what I see. Buehrle has been a pitcher his whole career. Zambrano was a pitcher who became a thrower. I'm a Cubs fan,but careerwise,Buehrle is the better pitcher.

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
They only have a year difference in service time and they've both played for 10+ years. So when comparing the two you're trying to ignore the early part of their careers because Buehrle was good and Zambrano was bad. Got it.

You truly are having difficulty with this

Here Ill show you

2001 Zambrano pitched 7.1 innings. His WAR was -.09


Now do you think that WAR is an accurate number. Should it be counted the same as a year where he pitched the whole year? Of course not

Even including the half year, your numbers are way off. You cant use Buehrle's 2001 220 against Zambrano's 7.1 . Its not equal.


To say nothing of the fact that they are starting pitchers and the innings they pitched in relief as rookies should proabably be put aside anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Stop toying, Bryan. FINISH HIM!

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:16 pm 
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SWEEP THE LEG JOHNNY!!!

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:18 pm 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
SWEEP THE LEG JOHNNY!!!

:lol:

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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
In the grand SCEME (not scope, Dumbass) pf things

Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:19 pm 
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BTW, I cant believe no Sox fan has brought up post season numbers.

Buehrle was GREAT in the post season and contributed directly to a World Series. Zambrano was below average and lost 3 of the 4 playoffs series he was in.


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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Stop toying, Bryan. FINISH HIM!


Hawg Ass wrote:
SWEEP THE LEG JOHNNY!!!

:lol: :lol:

The funny thing is, I havent even said Zambrano was better.


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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Not even sure on the argument because I skipped right over it... :x

But I think Carlos had a period of time he was one of the best pitchers in the game, for about a 4 years period,

Buerhle has had a much more consistant run, than Carlos.

I would say roughly Carlos's first 5 years he was better, last 5...not

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:26 pm 
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bigfan wrote:
Not even sure on the argument because I skipped right over it... :x

But I think Carlos had a period of time he was one of the best pitchers in the game, for about a 4 years period,

Buerhle has had a much more consistant run, than Carlos.

I would say roughly Carlos's first 5 years he was better, last 5...not


Sounds right

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In the grand SCEME (not scope, Dumbass) pf things

Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:30 pm 
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HOVA wrote:
bigfan wrote:
Not even sure on the argument because I skipped right over it... :x

But I think Carlos had a period of time he was one of the best pitchers in the game, for about a 4 years period,

Buerhle has had a much more consistant run, than Carlos.

I would say roughly Carlos's first 5 years he was better, last 5...not


Sounds right

:shock: I am in agreement with Biggie and Hova!!

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:37 pm 
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bigfan wrote:
But I think Carlos had a period of time he was one of the best pitchers in the game, for about a 4 years period,

You think wrong, and that is a comma, not a period.


rogers park bryan wrote:
Zambrano was below average and lost 3 of the 4 playoffs series he was in.

But at least he was ready for Game 4 of the '07 NLDS :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
bigfan wrote:
But I think Carlos had a period of time he was one of the best pitchers in the game, for about a 4 years period,

You think wrong, and that is a comma, not a period.


rogers park bryan wrote:
Zambrano was below average and lost 3 of the 4 playoffs series he was in.

But at least he was ready for Game 4 of the '07 NLDS :wink:

Yeah, that was a shame too because he was dueling with Webb. They both allowed 1 run thru 6. Woulda been nice to see Zambrano pitch the seventh.

But I cant blame Lou for bringing in Marmol. He was lights out all year and that is how they won the division.

Someone should have told him Mark Reynolds cant hit anything but a fastball.


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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:18 pm 
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Theo on the deal (from the Trib)

Epstein said the options were to release Zambrano and get nothing in return or pay the $15-$16 million and get a player. After polling a number of players, Epstein realized Zambrano could never regain "trust" in the clubhouse after his August walkout left players and management feeling "burned" again.

"I was skeptical," he said, adding: "I'm not big on labels, I'm not big on reputations dictating how I treat people or how I think about people. But this was one that was really consistent. Every player I talked to articulated to me that Carlos really violated their trust. When you're talking about physical altercations with players repeatedly, when you're talking about physically walking out on the team, it's very hard to then have that player come back into the clubhouse and be trusted. In order to be a good teammate, there has to be a certain degree of trust and accountability.

"Do I believe in second chances? Yes. Do I believe in third chances? Yes, in some cases, and even fourth chances. But I think you have to be realistic about it and recognize that players don't dictate decisions like this, but you're trying to establish a certain sense of unity in the clubhouse, and a sense of purpose... The players here felt, and the organization feels, like there just wasn't trust there, and it was a risky proposition to see whether that trust could be re-established."

Epstein said there was no "mandate" from Ricketts to deal Zambrano, and that Zambrano told him during their meeting at a Wrigleyville restaurant that he wanted to remain a Cub.

"He said he didn't want to talk about a trade," he said. "He didn't want us to use that word in the discussions. I said, 'That's fine, but just so you know, that's something I think it's our obligation to pursue that, and then we'll have another conversation if and when that becomes a reality.' We weren't able to find any trade partners until this week, so that went on hold."

Larry Beinfest, Miami's president of baseball operations, said former White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen was "confident" he could keep Zambrano in check and re-start his career.

Miami sportscaster Jim Barry asked Beinfest "Why would you want a guy who has thrown water coolers and cleaned out his locker, he got suspended by his prior team, on your team?"

Beinfest replied: "Huh. We just think that the change of scenery will be beneficial to him. I think it'd (fair) to say, 'Well, is everything going to be perfect, or is it going to be incident-free?' It'd be hard to say that, given the guy's history. But Ozzie is very confident that he can help him. A lot of this is born from ultra-competitiveness.

"Now there are a lot of different ways to show ultra-competitiveness. Carlos may have shown this in a lot of different ways in the past. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. There are plenty of guys that break bats and throw coolers and scream at umpire, etc. And they're still very good players.

"I'm not condoning that in any way, but it does happen in the game... and with some very good players that are demonstrative with their competitiveness. And I think that's the way Carlos is in a lot of respects. It may happen that he has a blow-up or two. We don't know. With the history, there is a chance that will happen. But going back to Ozzie, and I hate to put it all on him, but he just feels really comfortable that the kid is going to do well here."

Beinfest said the Marlins "had very good information as to what had happened" with Zambrano in Chicago.

"We went into this thing with our eyes open," he said. "What has happened has happened. Carlos has some history of, um, outward behavior both on and off the field that could be termed as questionable. A lot of it comes from competitive fire, which we think is also a positive. I think a lot of those concerns were eased by his relationship with Ozzie, and Ozzie's confidence in Carlos."

Cubs baseball president Theo Epstein will address the media later today.

The Cubs rotation, for the time being, consists of Matt Garza, Ryan Dempster, Travis Wood, Randy Wells and Volstad, with Jeff Samardzija getting a possible shot in spring training.

With Zambrano gone and Kerry Wood still unsigned, there are no current Cubs remaining from the 2003 team that wound up within five outs of going to the World Series.

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:11 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
BTW, I cant believe no Sox fan has brought up post season numbers..


No one cares. The bum on the street doesn't win an argument against an invisible person just because no one responds.

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:31 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
BTW, I cant believe no Sox fan has brought up post season numbers..


No one cares. The bum on the street doesn't win an argument against an invisible person just because no one responds.

That analogy is terrible. There were a ton of (uninformed) responses.


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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:56 am 
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Mark Buehrle has pitched over 200 innings per year for the last 11 years. Z hasn't gone over 200 innings since 2007.

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:57 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
BTW, I cant believe no Sox fan has brought up post season numbers..


No one cares. The bum on the street doesn't win an argument against an invisible person just because no one responds.

That analogy is terrible. There were a ton of (uninformed) responses.


i wouldn't know. Enjoy. Zambrano's mother wouldn't even argue he is better.

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:59 am 
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good dolphin wrote:

i wouldn't know. Enjoy. Zambrano's mother wouldn't even argue he is better.

No one else has either.

As some lawer on this site is prone to advising: Read, think, THEN respond.


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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:08 am 
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fuck no. The meter starts if I have to think

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 Post subject: Re: BIG Z
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:09 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
fuck no. The meter starts if I have to think

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