Who you crappin'?

You certainly didn't see enough of English and Rodman if you're coming to the conclusion that Rodman was better.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I'm not ignoring you, Bagels. And I want to point out that you're forgetting about Wilson Chandler, a bunch of picks, and a few million bucks.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Who are you arguing with? I've never suggested Rodman wasn't the best rebounder in the league at times during his career.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

There's only been one guy in this entire thread who has made a reasonable case for Rodman's greatness and that is Zeph. But there are problems with some of the metrics he's cited. Like I pointed out, I don't think any of you are going to argue that Marcus Camby was a better player than Akeem. A lot of you seem to be relying on emotion and fuzzy Bulls memories.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

no i was referring to Ugie and FF who basically said the same thing I did several posts later. in any case yes, the trade was far more complicated than that, but those were the principals. and c'mon- you know in the NBA more than any other league trades are made for reasons other than talent. but, i would agree that Rodman wore out his welcome in San Antonio and probably "needed" Jordan and Jackson to control him. but also the Spurs had Robinson in his prime at the time, i don't think they needed Rodman as much as the Bulls did , it was obviously a good fit for him

but now you're throwing out an argument that was never made- or at least i didn't see it...no one argued that Rodman was better than Olajuwon or David Robinson or Barkely ...only that his skillset was more valuable than a career 18ppg scorer like Miller . if i missed where someone here was claiming that, feel free to point it out

Vince Carter was traded for Aaron Willams. But Vince Carter also made a bunch of all star games. I'm confused now....

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I agree with everything in your post there. But as a guy who followed the NBA in that time, I know you're not going to agree with FF or anyone else who suggests that in the time they were all playing, anyone thought Rodman was the player that Buck Williams was, that Shawn Kemp was. I'm sure I can do some research and find articles from Chicago beat writers wondering if the Rodman deal was a good idea.

He wasn't considered a key guy on those Detroit champions. He was just one of the guys in a deep rotation. I don't think anyone would assign those as "Rodman's championships". Then when went to the Spurs, he seemed to be exactly the piece they needed to put them over, a guy who would provide toughness and help Robinson rebound. But he tore that team apart. He missed about twenty games due to indifference. And now twenty years later I have to listen to a guy like HOVA who should know better tell me what a great team player he was? Come on.

By the time he got to the Bulls whatever star he ever had was fading fast as evidenced by the fact they could get him for Perdue. But he fit in perfectly and Phil idn't ask him to do anything he didn't want to do. Even then he caused some problems, but at that point in their careers Michael and Scottie were so seasoned and professional that they could roll with it and the team could absorb his nonsense.

Is any of that wrong?

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Don't be confused. Vince Carter was a great player and looked like he was on a Hall of Fame path for awhile.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I know you didn't ask me but yes, some of that was wrong. Characterizing Rodman as just a rotation player for those Pistons teams was wrong. Saying Buck Williams was better than Rodman was wrong.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

But he was traded for a player worse than Will Purdue when he was in his prime. That pretty much invalidates that part of your argument.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

well, i admit that i may be somewhat bias in a bad way toward Buck Williams....in the early 90's when i started watching basketball on a more than casual basis, he was in his later years. obviously he was still pretty solid but just a contributor on those Blazers teams. i never really saw his prime years with the Nets. i'm not denying he was a great player. but the articles you could find wondering whether or not it was a good idea for the Bulls to get Rodman was surely related to his personality. i don't want to speak for HOVA but i'm guessing when people say he's a great team player it's because the majority of NBA players want to score, and here was a player that didn't care about scoring and relished doing the dirty work. and the fact that not only did he want to do it, he did it at an extremely high level. and again, implying that his talent level was fading because they were able to get him for Perdue isn't really accurate as evidenced by the fact that his numbers dipped slightly, but still pretty much consistent to what he was doing in San Antonio. it was simply that the Spurs were fed up and wanted to get rid of him. They had a great interior defensive presence already in Robinson and could afford to let him go if he was causing trouble, whereas the Bulls were willing to take the gamble they could keep him in line with Jordan, Scottie and Phil since Grant was gone and they needed toughness inside . and it worked out, obviously

and yeah, i also disagree with the contention that Rodman was just a rotation player on the Pistons teams
just because they were deep teams doesn't negate his importance

No, you're wrong.

Here's an article by Sam Smith showing you what he thought of him at the time he came to the Bulls:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995 ... -rebounder

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I'm answering your question regarding whether I thought "people had a mistake selecting Reggie Miller over Rodman in the All-Star Game". Obviously Miller was going to make more games because of his scoring output, just like Bagels and I stated.

I just think you guys are remembering wrong. Was he considered a more important guy on those teams than Laimbeer? Than Aguirre? Than Salley? I don't think so. Daly developed him and he became a defensive specialist and a top rebounder. But I can't believe anyone would mention him as a main guy on those Detroit teams.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

No, you are wrong. You probably should have picked someone more credible than Sam Smith to help your case. Why would I even bother reading that garbage?

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

He was more important than Aguirre and Salley. Laimbeer was a team leader but their on-court importance was comparable.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

He averaged damn near 30 points a game in college but because the Pistons didn't need scoring he focused on defense and rebounding. He ended up making a HoF career out of those things. That is sacrificing for the team in my world.

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maybe next he'll find some trade rumors from Peter Vescey

Who better to use than Hall of Famer Sam Smith.

Sam Smith wasnt alone. That was a prevailing view at the time. Will Perdue.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

No it wasn't. The prevailing view was that Phil and Jordan would keep him in line. Aaron Williams.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

you keep bring up being traded for Will Perdue, JORR, but he was also traded for Sean Elliot just 2 years before that (an all-star at the time)

Do you lack such confidence in your position that you find it ncessary to fail mentioning Mourning and the two first rounders?

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

The first rounders were late first rounders. Did Mourning ever play a game for Toronto? Try again.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Late first rounders dont count?

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

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So the modern version of Reggie vs. Rodman would be

Ben Wallace (Detroit version) vs. Peja ?

rodman>ben wallace

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