Im no expert on NBA advanced stats but Id suggest the Lin thing was due to an extremely small sample size

And as Good as Rubio looks, numbers wise he's got some issues. 3.2 Turnovers per game, shooting 35% etc

But that's why numbers don't show you everything. It's obvious that the Wolves are a significantly worse team without Rubio. His numbers werent fantastic but he's one of the best in the league at making his teammates better and he's great defensively. I'm positive he's much better than the 3rd best backup PG in the league.

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True. Another small sample size though.

Plus I think when an exciting player like Rubio comes along we as fans tend to project more and dismiss any holes in the game as "something that will get better with experience"

Carmelo Anthony is regarded as one of the best one on one players in the league and people get upset when he goes one on one. He has more game winning shots than anyone in the league during the period in which he has been in the league. The reason that I brought up Jeremy Lin was because the Linsanity craze was intertwined with the plight of Carmelo Anthony. During its peak it was true that most of the discussion was centered on how would Carmelo adapt to Lin and his success. The second they lost a few games everyone media fans pounced. The reason that Linsanity died was not due to anything other than the fact that Lin was playing bad. He was getting exposed both offensively and defensively yet the person blamed was Carmelo Anthony because of a so called refusal to defer to the majestic talents of Lin. Their now deposed coach was also feeding the beast. The new coach has at least had the good sense to restore order by placing the ball in his best players hand and the Knicks are playing better. They blew out Magic last night without Lin or Stoudamire. The Carmelo detractors will conveniently neglect to mention this because it does not fit the narrative of him being a selfish player that has never won anything.

No, what I'm saying is that most NBA offenses (with the apparent exception of the Thunder, which I also disagree with) run their offensive scheme with the goal of allowing their best player multiple opportunities to put the ball in the hoop. It is obviously up to that player, matchups for the night, and defensive schemes if he is successful or not.

If Carmelo is the best player on that team, then he's going to get the most looks during the game. The ball is going to come to him more often than other players. That's all Goff was (likely) saying.

I'm done responding to this point. Of course Carmelo should get the most shots. He was before and he still is. Stop saying it.

Goff seemed to be saying that the entire offense should revolve around getting Carmelo his shots because he can put up good numbers.

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He's only been out of the first round one time.

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Ok, so your argument has gone from "Carmelo shouldn't get the most shots because it isn't working" to "of course Carmelo should get the most shots".

What makes you think the Thunder run their offense through Durant? They run it through Westbrook. And no, I'm not just talking about who initiates plays because that's obviously always the PG. The whole offense usually is predicated on him driving and then making a decision.

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Where did I ever say that Carmelo shouldn't get the most shots?

I explained that very point to you like 5 times in this thread. Are you just trying to waste my time?

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First post in the thread:

That doesn't say he shouldn't get the most shots. It's saying don't predicate your whole offense on simply getting him his shots.

I also said this in the first post.


So I never said that Carmelo shouldn't get the most shots on the team. You can stop pretending like I did.

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They set multiple picks on almost every trip up and down the floor trying to get Durant the ball in the post. He takes 20+ shots every single night. He’s their go-to guy late in games when they need a basket, and he’s become a much better passer when needing to find open teammates.

Like you mentioned, Westbrook gets a lot of shots and touches because he’s the point guard. He has the ball on every single play and on top of that he’s the best athlete on the floor no matter what. With that said, he will take over games at points and exploit matchups when he has them (almost all of the time). But that offense runs through and around Durant. They’ve designed an entire offense and acquired bigs designed for helping Durant get open. They got Perkins because he plays good defense and because he’s a monster at setting screens….so Durant can come off of those screens and get easy looks at the basket. Westbrook will run pick and rolls with the bigs and whatnot, but that’s just part of the offense… the main factor is Durant and his ability to score.

Westbrook has taken just about as many shots as Durant this season. The biggest criticism of the Thunder is that they too often play the way I describe and rarely play the way you described. That's why many people think Westbrook will cost them a series late in the playoffs.

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Ok, so now we're back to saying Carmelo can get the most shots on the team, as long as there is another viable offensive threat. Which would basically negate that other "threat", since... you know, Melo is getting the most shots. You are arguing in circles, sir.

<this is a good place for a quote break>

If Carmelo is the best player on the team, the offense should run through him. The scheme should include options and movement to give him opportunities to shoot the ball. Period.

If the offense does not run through him, then he would not be regarded as the best player on the team from an offensive standpoint.

I agree with you here. But the issue you describe has less to do with the offensive scheme and more to do with Westbrook's playing style (i.e. selfishness).

I don't even know what you are talking about now.

Here was my point. Please note that it has nothing to do with Carmelo getting the most shots or not getting the most shots. You don't run your offense to specifically get him as many shots as possible because he's "Carmelo Mother effing Anthony". You run an offense designed to create opportunities to score and because Carmelo is your best player he'll get his fair of shots because that is what happens when good players do well.

I know this will kind of sound bad, but it seems like you don't really understand the difference between a guy getting the most shots on the team and an entire offense being designed to get him as many shots as possible.

The Nuggets and Knicks have tried the "Get Carmelo the ball and watch him do his thing" offense and it hasn't worked. The Knicks need to run an offense based on getting the best shot available. If on that possession it ends up being Carmelo then go ahead. If it ends up being the second or third option then go ahead. A player like Carmelo will still get his shots.

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I don't agree, but I understand your point and the difference between the two schemes you point out.

Let me make it clear that there are players who you do that for, but Carmelo has yet to show he can do that on an elite team even with gaudy numbers.

The major point is that Carmelo has been a stat hog so far in his career. Big numbers but poor results in the win/loss column. Building a team around the same stuff that hasn't worked in the past is a poor decision.

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Scott Brooks has repeatedly said Westbrook is as big a part of the offense as Durant is and said he has free reign to shoot.

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He may have only been out of the first round once but he has not exactly been on a team with stellar talented. In fact this Knick team is the most talented team that he has played on. I know people will throw out names i.e. Allen Iverson but he was about done when they got him and both Philly and Denver were better when he left. At the time that he was establishing himself in the league the Western Conference was loaded with teams that were vastly superior to what Denver had. The East was inferior. What should not be overlooked is the fact that during the period when the Carmelo bashing was taking place he was not the focal point of the offense Jeremy Lin was. They are playing better since they have gotten away from D'Antoni's point guard centric offense where everything is screen roll with the point guard dominating the ball for 15-20 seconds.

I'm sure that's true, because Westbrook would certainly be the best player on most other teams in the NBA. The Thunder do have that luxury of two high-ability scorers. Regardless, Durant is still Option #1 in most of the sets they run.

Not if you want to win a title

Of course he is, but the offense isn't run through him.

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I think we're looking at it in two different ways.

You seem to be looking at it from whomever orchestrates the offense. I have been looking at it as whomever is the ultimate scoring option in the scheme.

From your point-of-view, I will agree. Westbrook runs the offense insofar as he is the "conductor".

So you don't think Boston runs their offense through Rondo?

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Fair point. He's obviously not the #1 scoring option, but can definitely score if needed. Boston is one of a few teams in that regard.

Other examples,

Chicago also runs their offense through their PG, but that's also because he's their main scorer. Similar situation with the Clippers.

Minnesota... that one is tough, because an argument can be made for Rubio. However I still believe Love is the main option.

Miami is also difficult to pinpoint, but the obvious assumption is LBJ.

Boston does not run their offense through Rondo. He has the ball because he's the point guard. The offense is run through Paul Pierce. He is the person that gets the isolation plays he is the first option with Ray Allen as the second option. Rondo is an opportunity scorer who gets very few if any plays called for him

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If you have an elite PG they will always run the offense. If Chris Paul went to the Lakers or Heat there's no question who is taking control of the offense.

Most of the time I'd say the best scorer has the offense run through them but not always. I agree with Rick that Melo shouldn't be one of those guys. At this point he's either unable or unwilling to find teammates out of double teams in time and he's terrible at picking and choosing his spots. I don't think that's why his teams have never won though. They haven't won because they've never been very good defensively, which is partly on him. That 2009 Nuggets team was very good though. I wouldn't call them average or anything close. They were probably the 5th best team in the league that year.

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What?? This is pretty stupid.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul