Then we include the hit, the HBP, and each of the 27 outs, and compare them to other all 27 outs from other games. You're being lazy and letting an invented term do the arguing for you.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_%28rhetoric%29
"A perfect game is perfect because it's a perfect game"

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Didn't you cite BABIP earlier? It seems to me that Woods BABIP was actually lower than expected. I guess those statistics only matter when it helps your side.


I feel kind of dumb saying this, but you do realize that baseball is a team sport? The pitcher gets most of the credit, but how your team performs matters too. For instance, to have a true perfect game you also need to win the game. What makes it perfect is that you could literally not have done any better in terms of outs and baserunners and outcome.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Fine, trickybeck. Don't call it a "perfect game" then. The fact remains that retiring 27 batters in a row is better than a game in which 2 runners reached base. Its called "perfect" for a reason; because nobody reached base. Once again, two baserunners is two more than has been allowed by the 21 PERFECT games in MLB history.

Now, try and post a reply without editing it this time round.

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I wasn't the one making the BABIP argument.


If you want to argue that a "perfect game" is a team stat, then that's fine. We should use it to evaulate a team's performance on a given day, not the pitcher's performance. Everyone here is arguing about a pitcher's individual performance. So then we need a new stat for pitchers, say an "ultimate game." An "ultimate game" is 27 strikeouts on 81 pitches (all strikes), no balls, foul balls, walks, hbp, hits, or errors. And then we can measure how close a pitcher came to an "ultimate game."

It's strictly not better and you know it. Why do you insist on including defense in how well a pitcher pitches?

Sorry I had to edit my post for typos, guess I'm not PERFECT.

No, I havent done that. You're drawing the wrong conclusion. The article I posted explains it.

The pitcher is part of the team.

That indicates that throwing a ball is a bad thing. It's not. The other stuff is factored into it though.

Ironically though, Humber threw a higher percentage of strikes than Wood did so you may not be happy with the result here. He had more in every other category too.

Thanks trickybeck! You just proved that you think Humbers perfect game was better.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You said that home runs, walks, and strikeouts are what matters for a pitcher. What am I missing?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Frank and Rick


Buehrle's pitch that Wise caught at the wall vs. Woods pitch that got the weak grounder to Orie


Which was the better pitch?

Are you a golfer? Do you also think that a getting a par is better than getting a birdie or an eagle?

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No, I didnt. Those are things the pitcher controls. I said the rest has a degree of chance to it.

Again, if you read the article I posted, you'll get the concept.

For all we know, that was the worst pitch Buerhle threw all day. I don't feel like doing a pitch by pitch review of all of them.

I bet Randy Johnson threw a lot of good pitches in his 19 strikeout loss too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You are making the mistake of thinking that I have some sort of Cubs-Sox bias in my argument. If the metric I invented shows that's the case, then so be it. Of course, I only came up with that metric on a whim in 10 seconds, and didn't put any thought into the weights of each penalty. Obviously, a pitched ball wouldn't have the same negative weight that a home run would have. Again, more lazy arguing.

Please clarify. You are stating here that on balls that are put into play that the pitcher had at least some control as to whether it was a hit or was an out. Is that correct?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

That's exactly what I'm arguing someone SHOULD do. If you want to truly evaluate a performance, look at every pitch and every ball in play, etc.

But he gave up 11 hits, probably a good portion of them hard hit balls, and at least two homers.


You dont feel like doing a pitch by pitch review, because Wood's pitch was clearly better and that blows your whole theory to hell.


So, if a pitcher gave up 27 warning track shots, that were all robbed, you would think thats better than a guy striking out 26 batters and walking one.

I disagree.

I don't see where I mentioned Bias. You just joined the side of Humbers perfect game is better than Woods 20k game because pretty much everything, including strikes thrown, was better for Humber.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yes, some control. But significantly less than the 3 true outcomes. Also, there are other factors that affect it outside of the pitcher's control. Again, its ALL in the article I posted. I wish you'd read it.

I did. None of them reached base. Now, go ahead and do a more comprehensive rundown to prove me wrong if you want.

That's like saying if you want to evaluate the housing market you should look at each house and then know it. Yes, that could work out better, but you can look at the bigger picture.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Buerhle's robbed homerun pitch vs Woods groundball single pitch. You dont want to do that, because it makes it so obvious that you're wrong.

RPB and tricky, you guys both keep talking about Humber and Buehrle. Why? Why just those two? Why not pick and choose the "hard hit balls" from Halladay's or Braden's perfect game? Do you think Wood's game was better than Larsen's World Series perfecto?

And we're not talking about a guy giving up 25 warning track shots, or a guy that struck out 26 batters. We're, or at least I am, talking about a guy who allowed 2 runners to reach base versus guys who allowed zero runners to reach base. I will never, ever believe that guy who allowed zero runners to reach had a better game than Kerry Wood that dayin 1998, with Armando Gallaraga being the only exception.

Roger, I don't know what pitch was better. And I really don't care to go pitch by pitch. I will say this. The 2009 Rays offense was a lot better than the 1998 Astros offense.

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My guy!

You have now stated that a pitcher has at least some control of whether a ball in play is an out or a hit. Therefore, in any perfect game they had 27 pitches that they helped create outs by throwing it good enough to be an out with none that lead to a hit or baserunner.
Why though? You have now admitted that the pitcher is at least partially responsible for what happens on a ball hit in play.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Come on man that is weak. the 98 astros were no slouches. Bagwell, Biggio, Alou, Bell, Everett

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Because a pitch that gives up a shot to the warning track is clearly worse than one that gives up a weak grounder



What? Are you even looking this stuff up? The 98 astos were a great team with a great offense.

Only when judging those two pitches.

Buerhle made a pitch good enough to get an out. You've admitted that. That's all that matters. Yes, it could have been a hit, but Wood also could have pitched well enough to not give up a baserunner. "Could haves" aren't as good as "Dids".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

And they won the Central with 102 wins

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

That's both of you that have stated this now. I myself would like to go pitch by pitch, or at least read the report of someone who did. You on the other hand, don't have a desire to actually gain additional knowledge of what happened, so I don't see a point in arguing with the wilfully ignorant anymore.

Yes, just like everything else with you, I have to point out its not Black and white.

Having some control, doesnt mean having 100% control.




But if you read what I posted, the well hit ball ratio covers all that.


So you believe the guy who gave up 27 bombs that were robbed is better than the guy that struckout 26 and walked one. Thats enough for me.