Then don't. It's not that hard.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

No its not. You are oversimplifying.


I wish you would have posted this non sense earlier.


So to you the END is all that matters. How you got there is unimportant. Cool.

Bad way to analyze things though.

You guys care to answer this?


Its clear you and tricky both believe that allowing 2 baserunners is better than allowing zero. How its better I have no idea, but you both seem to believe it. That's your right I guess. I think its crazy and dead wrong, but you believe whatever you want to.

Maybe you both also believe that a guy who goes out and gives up 4 runs is better than a guy who gives up 1 run. Or an NHL goalie that gives up 3 goals did better than a the guy at the other end of the ice who gave up nothing.

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I'm not arguing he has 100% control. I don't even think he has 100% control of home runs and even strikeouts.

He made 27 pitches good enough to get outs, and 0 bad enough to be a hit. It can't get better than that. Of course he wasn't in 100% control, but this is team sports. 100% control almost never exists.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Im bringing up Buehrle because that was the original argument.


Also, AJ Burnett.


Woods game is better than every perfect game and no hitter in modern times. Not a Sox thing.

Not true. The one Wise hit was a well hit ball and was definitely good enough for a hit. It happened to be caught.

If Wise trips on his way, were not having this discussion. Dont you see how ridiculous that is?

Incorrect. 100% incorrect. Here is the original post on this;
YOU turned it into a Wood vs Buehrle thing. The first person to mention Mark Buehrle in this thread was you.

And trickybeck's first replies to this was him calling me "retarded" and a "fucker" so I could not possibly care less what he thinks about this.

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Ultimately, the scoreboard tells the tale. The #1 goal of a pitcher is to not allow a baserunner. The #2 goal of a pitcher is not allow a run. There is one way to do that as well as possible.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Why is that ridiculous? If Kerry Wood doesn't hit a batter or give up a hit we aren't having this discussion either. If Kerry Wood strikes out 19 batters we aren't having this discussion.

It's sports. The difference between success and failure is often very thin.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I was referring to the multi page thread from last year.

I think you know that.

Its ridiculous because you are ignoring that pitchers control some things more than others.


You guys keep thinking what you think. Ill stick with Bill James/advanced stats analysis.

I'm not ignoring it but I think you have to give credit to any pitcher who gets everyone out in a game even if there was an alternative universe where a ball falls down by statistical chance. It's kind of like how I give Michael Jordan credit for hitting a game winning shot rather than saying that there was a 55% chance he would have missed. He didn't though. He hit the shot.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yeah, I think Wise's catch vs. the groundball sums up my argument nicely. Im good with you guys disagreeing.



Frank, for the record, I believe there have been literally 1000 pitching performances better than Burnetts no hitter.

For sure. And probably 2500 better than Liriano's. Perfect Games (ULTIMATE GAMES!) are different though.

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Bryan Lahair: .548 babip...probably not sustainable.

Frank and B-Rick, I would love to play poker with you guys sometime. My favorite players to play against are ones that are strictly results-based. The kind of players that will bet half their stack chasing a gut-shot straight, hit it, and think they played correctly because the results say so. I want those people at my table all night long.

I find it EASY to celebrate the 20 strikeout/1 hit game Wood tossed. His career (due to injuries) did not turn out as many hoped it might. But Wood had some great highlights. This game, the 2 wins in games 1 &5 in the 2003 NLDS (game 5 being the deciding game that sent them to the NLCS) stand out amongst the best. Kerry has always been a great competitor and a good guy. I would welcome a swict to Kerry Wood in the radio booth, in place of Keith Moreland. Moreland is awful. I would like Mark Grace or Rick Sutcliffe instead, but if neither can be had Kerry Wood would be an improvement.

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Go Cubs!!!!

Great argument. Outs are the most valued part of baseball. How you force those outs should be inconsequential. Humber got to 27 outs faster than Wood and without letting a runner reach base. That has to be valued higher than Wood in my book and has to be considered the better pitching performance.

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Remember when he hit a grand slam to win game 7 against the Braves in 2003?

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Do you agree that he is the most disappointing player of the last 12 years? If not, who?

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I always will remember Fergusun Jenkins striking out 6 in a row in the 1967 All-Star Game:

The 6-foot-5 right-hander proceeded to strike out six of the best sluggers in modern American League (AL) history. He sat down Harmon Killebrew (led AL with 44 homers), Tony Conigliaro (hitting .297), Mickey Mantle (hit his 500th homer on May 14), Jim Fregosi (went on to be a six-time All-Star), Rod Carew (future seven-time AL batting crown winner) and Tony Oliva (who would win three AL batting crowns).

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favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

Right, but they aren't necessarily the most dominant pitching performances in my estimation.

A good portion of perfect games rely on defense and other variables. Especially games where you have homeruns being robbed. Strikeouts pretty much stand on their own.

Anyway, its not a Cub Sox thing. Bill James didn't develop the theory to stick it to Sox fans. I agree with how he views it, you guys don't.

Now lets all have some Micro Shakes and french fries

I don't care what sort of formula Bill James created. I don't see how anybody could say that a guy who allowed 2 baserunners dominated a team more than a guy who allowed zero baserunners.

As I said earlier I would even argue that have been at least one and possibly 2 pitching performances better in Cubs history than Wood's 20K game.

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Are you saying that Humber didn't play correctly? I don't get the metaphor. It's not like he was tossing underhanded and he kept on getting popouts. He struck out 9 and finished the game in roughly 1/3rd less pitches than Wood, didn't give up a baserunner, and faced the statistical minimum. Yeah, that's the same as some guy getting lucky.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Ok





I can see why you think that, with what you believe about baseball.

a poker argument. Just stop right now.


Let's say Adam Dunn hits 43 HRs this year, and bats .248 with 100 RBI. Say Starlin Castro his .389 with 5 HRs and 70 RBI.

I'd honestly say Castro had the better year because its a lot harder to hit .385 than it is to hit 40 bombs. When you're a power pitcher, its easier to strike out 15, 18+ guys than it is to retire 27 hitters in a row.
And spany would still claim Dunn isn't "back" with #'s like that.

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Its really remarkable that no one brought up the Bill James thing in that original thread.


Anyway, Steve Nebraska's 81 pitch, 27 strikeout perfect game in the World Series is the standard

I think "control" is the wrong word to use. Pitchers and hitters each have an effect on an at-bat. There seems to be a popular viewpoint that a pitcher has a minimal effect on where a ball goes once it is struck. I don't believe that to be true. A pitcher affects where the ball will most likely go (at least generally) by where he throws it to a particular batter. That fact that it appears to be random speaks more to the inaccuracy most pitchers have in hitting their desired spots on a consistent basis rather than complete and utter randomness.

Certainly you can't believe that Mark Burehrle is so lucky that he has faced the minimum amount of batters two or three times while recording so few strikeouts in those games. He would have to be the luckiest man in the history of baseball, perhaps replacing Lou Gehrig.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

No I do not agree. I attribute his disappointing career (compared to what it might have been, but still a decent career) to injuries. I would name Corey Patterson as the most disappointing player. He had all the tools to be an exceptional player. But he saw himself as a 30/30 type guy and tried to hard to pull the ball and hit homers, rather than spraying the ball all over the field and using his speed more. He would be my choice hands down.

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Go Cubs!!!!

I consider Anthony Rizzo the most disappointing player.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don