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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:32 am 
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Damn, that sucks :(


Did he say why?

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Last edited by Hawg Ass on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:32 am 
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http://tracking.si.com/2012/06/08/ill-h ... ?eref=sihp


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:38 am 
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That blows. Maybe if they have a billygoat walk along the triple crown tracks, whatever curse there is on these races will be broken.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:41 am 
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Some Belmont thoughts --

I definitely agree with JORR's thoughts on the Belmont being a race that horses simply aren't trained to run. You never hear of races being run at this distance, and economically, there isn't much incentive to train a horse specifically to run this length. In fact, if you had a horse that could run this far, owners would be on the trainer to get him to use that stamina up earlier in the race so he could start dominating 9f races.

That last race by Paynter looks like serious business. Also has some decent workouts.

Agree that IHA will be terribly overbet, and I don't think he has been dominant to the point that you can overlook the fatigue of his racing schedule. That being said, he closed like a sonofagun at the Preakness and it is difficult to throw him out entirely. I would be surprised but not shocked to see him finish out of the money.

Union Rags is a contender here, no doubt. Skipping the Preakness is often a gamble that pays off... I think you have to go back to '05 Afleet Alex to find a Preakness starter that won the race. Added to which you can start training on lengthening the horse's range without worrying about shrinking it down first. Dullahan as well -- he and UR should get a much better trip this time out with the field being much smaller.

There's a couple of horses which look like they are there just fill out the field... Dweej and Ravelo's Boy in particular. I know they don't run races on paper, but still. Optimizer seems more like one that would be a surprise winner if you're looking for a longshot. My Adonis could be a nice long shot also.

EDIT: On posting I see that IHA is scratched!?!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:45 am 
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Gay


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:13 am 
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May have run his last race.

From http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sn ... ?track=rss

Quote:
The Sports Xchange Reuters

11:00 a.m. CDT, June 8, 2012


Belmont Stakes with a shot to win horse racing's elusive Triple Crown, has been declared out of Saturday's race with tendonitis, his trainer said Friday morning.

Doug O'Neill, discussing the injury on The Dan Patrick Show radio program, said theKentucky Derby and The Preakness winner has Achilles tendon irritation and the start of tendonitis. He was unsure how the 4-5 Belmont favorite suffered the injury.

"Usually these type of injures the (horses) hit themselves or hyperextended themselves," O'Neill said. "Maybe he just strained himself from training. Just a freakish thing. I'm bummed we're not participating. Whoever wins (the Belmont) will be a special horse.

O'Neill has scheduled a press conference at Belmont on Friday afternoon.

O'Neill said I'll Have Another may have run his last race.

"If I had to wager ... yes," he said

I'll Have Another was attempting to become the first horse to win the Triple Crown since Affirmed in 1978. Eleven horses have won the first two legs of the Triple Crown since then and have failed to complete the feat at the Belmont Stakes.

"I have to do what's in the best interest of the horse," O'Neill said.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:54 am 
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They have nothing to gain by running him again. He's already worth probably 40M at stud. Why risk a life threatening injury?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:56 am 
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First

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Then

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Glue is just horse semen?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Walt Williams Neck wrote:
I'd love to see Have Another but Paynter has time off and the only horse with a 100 plus Beyer other than IHA..going to the lead and set slow fractions ...TOUGH here.Of course a $2 win on IHA :D


I think Walt's scenario just got a lot more plausible.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:03 pm 
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I don't have any strong opinions, and I probably won't have time to go wager real American dollars, but if I were going to take a chance I'd go with Atigun for a price here.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
I don't have any strong opinions, and I probably won't have time to go wager real American dollars, but if I were going to take a chance I'd go with Atigun for a price here.



These guys kinda scare me off of Atigun.

http://www.drf.com/horse/atigun

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Bob Ehalt from Thoroughbred Times with updated thoughts.


Quote:
Ragozin Insider: Dullahan, Paynter stand best chance
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2012 5:27 PM

by Bob Ehalt

That loud collective sigh of disappointment uttered by the racing industry over the retirement of I'll Have Another was no doubt deafening among a fraternity of handicappers.

Heading into Friday, the Belmont Stakes (G1) had an inviting choice to bet against in Triple Crown hopeful I'll Have Another. According to Len Friedman of Ragozin Thoroughbred Data, The Sheets indicated that the winner of the Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands (G1) and Preakness Stakes (G1) had the third-best chance of winning the race.

In Friedman's opinion, 4-to-5 odds and only a 15% chance of winning mix even worse than oil and water.

Now, with I'll Have Another retired, Dullahan and Paynter still have the best chances of winning, but their wagering value has been completely skewered.

Dullahan was last seen running third behind I'll Have Another in the Derby while earning a 5 1/4. With a line of 5 1/4 - 4 3/4 - 6 in his last three races and five weeks rest, Dullahan is nicely positioned to move forward Saturday and assume leadership of the there-year-old division.

Unfortunately, he's not as attractive in his new role as the 9-to-5 favorite as he was at 5-to-1 or 6-to-1. Still, he rates as one of the main players in the exotics.

Paynter offers more risk and now a lesser-than-expected reward.

Bodemeister's stablemate has raced only four times. He started his career with a 7 1/4 then retreated slightly to an 8 while losing to I'll Have Another in the Santa Anita Derby (G1). On three weeks rest he notched a breakthrough figure of 2 1/4 while finishing second in The Cliff's Edge Derby Trial Stakes (G3). Running again on three weeks rest, this time in an allowance race on the Preakness undercard, Paynter figured to react to his 5-point top. Instead, he did what few horses are capable of doing, running virtually as fast with a 2 1/2.

Now, on three weeks rest, the rigors of two such demanding efforts just might catch up with him. At 8-to-1 odds, when I'll Have Another was set to race against him, and with extreme number power, there was incentive for overlooking a risky pattern and backing the notion that he's a good enough horse to once again do something special.

The more likely price of 7-of-2 is certainly less inviting, though his task, and everyone else's for that matter, became much easier without I'll Have Another to fear.

Union Rags seems the most suspect of the top contenders. He has plenty of number power, with a 3 1/4 both at two and three. But both of those races — the Grey Goose Breeders' Cup Juvenile (G1) and Fasig-Tipton Fountain of Youth Stakes (G2) — were at 1 1/16 miles. In the 1 1/8-mile Florida Derby (G1), he regressed to a 7, and he then received only a 9 1/4 in the 1 ¼-mile Kentucky Derby after a poor start.

"I can't believe how often people put too much emphasis on troubled trips," Friedman said. "Sure he had a bad trip, but he also ran a 9 1/4. That's not saying much."

Of the rest, Atigun offers the new version of value at 15-to-1 odds. With a line of 7 1/2 - 9 1/2 - 13 3/4 and five weeks rest, he seems poised for another forward move for trainer Ken McPeek, who won the Belmont in 2002 with Sarava - who paid $142.50.

Street Life has some appeal in the exotics off an 8 1/2 - a 2-point new top - in the Peter Pan Stakes (G2) at Belmont last month.

He's 8-to-1, as opposed to 12-to-1 in the original morning line, one more reason for some handicappers to let out a sigh.

The Belmont field, with Bob Ehalt's comments:

1. Street Life (Jose Lezcano) 8-to-1
Posted a 2-point new top of 8 1/2 in the Peter Pan.

2. Unstoppable U (Junior Alvarado), 20-to-1
Unlikely U is more like it with two races and nothing better than a 12 1/4.

3. Union Rags (John Velazquez), 3-to-1
Best figures (3 1/4) are at a mile and a sixteenth.

4 Atigun (Julien Leparoux), 15-to-1
Offers the best value with a 7 1/2 - 9 1/2 - 13 3/4.

5. Dullahan (Javier Castellano), 9-to-5
Has the best chance of winning with a 5 1/4 - 4 3/4 - 6.

6. Ravelo's Boy (Alex Solis), 30-to-1
Might move forward off an 11 1/2 - 9 1/4 - 15 1/2.

7. Five Sixteen (Rosie Napravnik), 30-to-1
Pretty slow with a 13 1/4 - 16 3/4 - 15 1/4.

8. Guyana Star Dweej (Kent Desormeaux), 30-to-1
Had a 9 1/4 but then bounced to a 16 1/2.

9. Paynter (Mike Smith), 7-2
Has number power with a 2 1/2 and 2 1/4, but will he react?

10. Optimizer (Corey Nakatani), 15-to-1
Is inching forward with a 10 - 12 - 12 1/4.

11. I'll Have Another - Scratched

12. My Adonis (Ramon Dominguez), 15-1
A 7 1/2 was promising, but he's paired 12 1/4 since.

For more information on Ragozin speed figures, go to /redirect.aspx?location=www.thesheets.com.


Bob Ehalt is a Connecticut-based Thoroughbred Times correspondent

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:36 pm 
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spmack wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
I don't have any strong opinions, and I probably won't have time to go wager real American dollars, but if I were going to take a chance I'd go with Atigun for a price here.



These guys kinda scare me off of Atigun.

http://www.drf.com/horse/atigun

I can't argue with any of the plausible choices, but of the crazies, I think he has the best shot. Don't take my opinion for much; like I said, I'm probably not betting it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Also, have to say, generally I'm not a huge fan of Ragozin's numbers. Other smart cappers are. Your mileage may vary.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:45 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
Also, have to say, generally I'm not a huge fan of Ragozin's numbers. Other smart cappers are. Your mileage may vary.



Ragozin's followers are almost like a cult. "The Sheets! The Sheets!"

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:04 pm 
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YAY! So some wealthy group with more clout than the others forced this trainer/owner to retire the horse in order to keep the trainer's shady business "quiet'.

The only "sport" that is more fixed is boxing. Keep this crap.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:18 pm 
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spanky wrote:
YAY! So some wealthy group with more clout than the others forced this trainer/owner to retire the horse in order to keep the trainer's shady business "quiet'.

The only "sport" that is more fixed is boxing. Keep this crap.

Hey folks, so this is what happens when Dan Bernstein is your primary source of information on horse racing info.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:21 pm 
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spanky wrote:
The only "sport" that is more fixed is boxing. Keep this crap.

You got it -- guess what, the horses are in on it too!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Irish Boy wrote:
spanky wrote:
YAY! So some wealthy group with more clout than the others forced this trainer/owner to retire the horse in order to keep the trainer's shady business "quiet'.

The only "sport" that is more fixed is boxing. Keep this crap.

Hey folks, so this is what happens when Dan Bernstein is your primary source of information on horse racing info.

Didn't hear one minute of the show today. Is that what he said?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:31 pm 
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spanky wrote:
Irish Boy wrote:
spanky wrote:
YAY! So some wealthy group with more clout than the others forced this trainer/owner to retire the horse in order to keep the trainer's shady business "quiet'.

The only "sport" that is more fixed is boxing. Keep this crap.

Hey folks, so this is what happens when Dan Bernstein is your primary source of information on horse racing info.

Didn't hear one minute of the show today. Is that what he said?

Of course it was. This should send the "Scorehead agrees with me" shivers up your spine.

I've gone through this at length in the B&B thread from today.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:36 pm 
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Yeah didn't see the thread either. I'm a late-comer tonight. (no particular order)

a). bothered flying to New York in the 1st place
b). ran this morning, no visible distress
c). passing on a chance to make horse racing history and multiply your stud fees and legacy by...........who knows how much?
d). Dirty trainer, recently busted AGAIN.
e). historically dirty/fixed sport

Too many coincidences for my "something is stinky" detector on this one.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:45 pm 
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spanky wrote:
Yeah didn't see the thread either. I'm a late-comer tonight. (no particular order)

a). bothered flying to New York in the 1st place
b). ran this morning, no visible distress
c). passing on a chance to make horse racing history and multiply your stud fees and legacy by...........who knows how much?
d). Dirty trainer, recently busted AGAIN.
e). historically dirty/fixed sport

Too many coincidences for my "something is stinky" detector on this one.

This is where inexactness counts.

First off, the Belmont win means very little for stud fees--probably as much as a Belmont loss would mean in reverse, so it comes out in the wash. IHA's biggest problem at stud isn't going to be performance related, it's going to be that he's potentially unsound, and that his bloodlines are pretty mediocre.

Second, IHA hasn't recorded an official workout since before the KD. If they've been sandbagging, they've been doing it a long time.

Third, IHA has a history of injuries. This wouldn't be the first time,

Fourth, and this is the most important: the accusations against Doug O'Neill are for infractions that, if true, can only be committed very shortly before the race. The science is important here, and journalists have been extremely lazy about all of it.

Fifth, if we had to add a fifth: NYRA is basically controlled by governor Cuomo right now, who already went out of his way to embarrass O'Neill in the run up to the race. If he had dirty test results he'd nail him and ride in as the knight in shining armor, then use the case as an excuse to wrestle even more control over NYRA. It's all very inside baseball, but it matters.

Motive counts too, and the owners have every obvious motive to scratch, while NYRA has zero motive to cover anything up. The entire conspiracy makes no sense. Like I said earlier today, there are at least more plausible conspiracies we could create in the meantime.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:51 pm 
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I'm guessing there are far more attempted "fixes" in baseball, football, and especially basketball than there are in horse racing.

I'm not sure how you make money fixing a horse race when the pools at most tracks are so shallow. The risk/reward is way out of whack. And then there's always some guy who wasn't in the group to run over your money.

It's not really that easy. If you're trying to "fix" an outcome at one of the few tracks with large enough handles, it's easy to notice odd betting in the computer age. This isn't Goldsmith Maid on the Beacon Course we're talking about.

I know some guys who tried to put one over at Maywood. The mistake they made was trying to take the money down on the house Q in Vegas.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:53 pm 
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1). Inexactness is right. You can't even determine the amount of stud fees for a 3-C winner these days. Considering this is the longest drought ever and there is WAY more money to be thrown around now. Young, dumb, Saudi prince anyone? They never existed before.

2). "Official" workouts don't matter. That horse was running on the track this morning with unprecedented (for that horse and that trainer) attention. He was visibly fine.

3). A long history of injuries for that horse? And today, within.....an hour? He is "hurt" and completely done racing for good? No Breeder's or anything else, which months away?

I have no idea who actually "controls" the NY horse racing. Neither do you. And if we don't know who is in control, how can we know their motives for anything? And besides, that doesn't matter for my original theory. Who controls the Belmont? Doesn't matter - they just lost, big time.


Again - long been a dirty "sport" in multiple ways. No arguing that. Keep that in mind when considering any other factors.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm not sure how you make money fixing a horse race when the pools at most tracks are so shallow. The risk/reward is way out of whack.

The "reward" is obvious.
What's the "risk" that far outweighs the reward?

Somebody gets suspended for a month after the multiple infraction:

1). move to another track
2). Move to another state
3). "Ghost" own/train the horse
4). Bet on another dirty horse(s) your connected with
5). Wait a month

Wow. That's some risk.

Get busted in any other major sports league, you're essentially done for years or life. You;re way off on your comparisons.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:02 pm 
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spanky wrote:
Again - long been a dirty "sport" in multiple ways. No arguing that. Keep that in mind when considering any other factors.


How is racing "dirtier" than anything else? The Cubs and Sox both tanked World Series. And I'm guessing those weren't the only games that were ever dumped. Oh yeah, Pete Rose only bets on his team to win. Okay. :lol: :lol: Alex Karras. Paul Hornung. Point shaving in hoops- professional and amateur. It goes on and on. Where there's money to be made...

I'm not sure what kind of strange conspiracy you're trying to concoct anyway. How can a horse be positive before he races? It's absurd. You do know a horse has already been disqualified from a Kentucky Derby in 1968 on a phenylbutazone positive, right?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
spanky wrote:
Again - long been a dirty "sport" in multiple ways. No arguing that. Keep that in mind when considering any other factors.


How is racing "dirtier" than anything else? The Cubs and Sox both tanked World Series. And I'm guessing those weren't the only games that were ever dumped. Oh yeah, Pete Rose only bets on his team to win. Okay. :lol: :lol: Alex Karras. Paul Hornung. Point shaving in hoops- professional and amateur. It goes on and on. Where there's money to be made...

I'm not sure what kind of strange conspiracy you're trying to concoct anyway. How can a horse be positive before he races? It's absurd. You do know a horse has already been disqualified from a Kentucky Derby in 1968 on a phenylbutazone positive, right?

:|

I didn't make a comparison to any other sport. I just said it's long been a dirty sport. That's true.






............Aaaaaaand I never said this horse was positive for anything. That had nothing to do with my post(s).

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:11 pm 
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spanky wrote:
I didn't make a comparison to any other sport.

spanky wrote:
The only "sport" that is more fixed is boxing.

WHO YOU CRAPPIN'?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:13 pm 
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spanky wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm not sure how you make money fixing a horse race when the pools at most tracks are so shallow. The risk/reward is way out of whack.

The "reward" is obvious.
What's the "risk" that far outweighs the reward?

Somebody gets suspended for a month after the multiple infraction:

1). move to another track
2). Move to another state
3). "Ghost" own/train the horse
4). Bet on another dirty horse(s) your connected with
5). Wait a month

Wow. That's some risk.

Get busted in any other major sports league, you're essentially done for years or life. You;re way off on your comparisons.





I'm not sure you're making a distinction between pushing on medication and "fixing" a race. EVERY, EVERY, EVERY horse in the Triple Crown races went to post on something besides hay, oats, and water.

When people talk about fixing a race, that suggests an outcome that has been predetermined by the participants. I'm not saying such a thing has never occurred either. It most certainly has. Just as it has in every other sport. What I'm telling you is that the pools at the vast majority of racetracks aren't large enough to make any significant money and it just isn't worth the getting caught as the ramifications are far worse than you seem to believe. Ron Marsh's career ended.

If you're talking about medicating a horse in a way to get around post-race testing, well, you're absolutely correct. Just like there are many guys who played in major league baseball games tonight who have gotten around similar rules in their sport.

So what is the motivation for secretly removing a healthy horse on the verge of a Triple Crown from the competition?

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