It is currently Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:30 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 150 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:35 pm
Posts: 82148
rogers park bryan wrote:
[. Its the same as liking the NFL Draft or College BB for the purposes of the NBA..


No it isn't. Those drafts provide immediate gratification (unless you are Dewskie). Baseball is more like the hockey draft, if they even have on in that "sport". I don't fault you for following prospects and the minor leagues as we all have our hobbies. I have always viewed it as a pursuit with few rewards since my youth in the Ron Schuler era.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 91921
Location: To the left of my post
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
I don't see the logic. A general thread about prospects is likely to go on for years.

A thread about a weekend series with the Reds or Braves, what have you, will end. What does this prove?
There is no other team in this city that has a "prospects" thread as the largest threads in a section.

Take it however you want. However, just think about how many other prospects have gotten the same level of treatment. I probably know more about the Cubs prospects than I do about any of the White Sox prospects.

So, are you saying that the Cubs prospects aren't given more attention than most other prospects of other organizations?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
The team is bad. The future is in the minors.

How is that being unrealistic? Seems like that is being all-too-frustratingly realistic.
It's unrealistic to think that Cub fans don't follow prospects much more closely than most others.

False stereotype perpetuated by Sox fans to make themselves feel like smarter fans.

Every major market team has a spotlight on their prospects. Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers etc. and the following of prospects is done by fans everywhere, not a team thing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:10 pm
Posts: 9673
Location: Schaumpton
pizza_Place: Piece Pizza and Brewery
Boilermaker Rick wrote:

So, are you saying that the Cubs prospects aren't given more attention than most other prospects of other organizations?


There are also a lot more Cubs fans than Sox fans. So I'm sure it seems that way to you. I'm sure Mets fans feel the same way.

_________________
Team Cutler.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:15 pm
Posts: 48800
Location: Bohemian Club Annual World Power Consolidation Conference & Golf Outing
pizza_Place: World Fluoridation Conspiracy Pizza & WINGS!
I'd say when the Cubs were going to the playoffs, there wasn't much discussion of their prospects.

When the team sucks, as it has the past 2 years, Cub fans look to see what prospects could lead to a turnaround, as most team's fans do.

_________________
You know me like that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 91921
Location: To the left of my post
rogers park bryan wrote:
False stereotype perpetuated by Sox fans to make themselves feel like smarter fans.
That doesn't make sense. If what I am saying is true that is calling White Sox fans less educated about the team.
rogers park bryan wrote:
Every major market team has a spotlight on their prospects. Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers etc. and the following of prospects is done by fans everywhere, not a team thing.
I disagree, at least with the Yankees and Mets.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 91921
Location: To the left of my post
Northside_Dan wrote:
There are also a lot more Cubs fans than Sox fans. So I'm sure it seems that way to you. I'm sure Mets fans feel the same way.
Once again, the biggest thread in the Cubs section here is about minor league prospects. More than any playoff thread. More than a thread about Theo, or Dusty, or Lou, or any MLB player.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:15 pm
Posts: 48800
Location: Bohemian Club Annual World Power Consolidation Conference & Golf Outing
pizza_Place: World Fluoridation Conspiracy Pizza & WINGS!
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Northside_Dan wrote:
There are also a lot more Cubs fans than Sox fans. So I'm sure it seems that way to you. I'm sure Mets fans feel the same way.
Once again, the biggest thread in the Cubs section here is about minor league prospects. More than any playoff thread. More than a thread about Theo, or Dusty, or Lou, or any MLB player.


So, just so I understand what is happening here, a 2 year-old thread about 100s of players is larger than a thread about a 3-game series or any individual person, most of whom are no longer with the organization?

That is insane.....and so meaningful.

_________________
You know me like that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:10 pm
Posts: 9673
Location: Schaumpton
pizza_Place: Piece Pizza and Brewery
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Northside_Dan wrote:
There are also a lot more Cubs fans than Sox fans. So I'm sure it seems that way to you. I'm sure Mets fans feel the same way.
Once again, the biggest thread in the Cubs section here is about minor league prospects. More than any playoff thread. More than a thread about Theo, or Dusty, or Lou, or any MLB player.


Ignoring the fact that you are using a thread here as a judge of how respective fan bases perceive their minor league system, it's not all that shocking considering how bad the Cubs have been, there are more Cubs fans and there really haven't been any prospects of note on the South Side the past few years for you guys to get excited about. I'd trade our 33 page minor league discussion for your WS or your 1st place team this year.

_________________
Team Cutler.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 91921
Location: To the left of my post
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
So, just so I understand what is happening here, a 2 year-old thread about 100s of players is larger than a thread about a 3-game series or any individual person, most of whom are no longer with the organization?

That is insane.....and so meaningful.
To the best of my knowledge, there is not another section on this board that has that. Not the White Sox section. Not the Bulls section. Not the Bears section. Not the Hawks section.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 91921
Location: To the left of my post
Northside_Dan wrote:
there really haven't been any prospects of note on the South Side the past few years for you guys to get excited about.
Is that true? Where did all of the younger players on the Sox this year come from?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625
immessedup17 wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
IMU has some interesting projections. I dont think you can apply everything he says to all cub fans.

Please cite my projections.

edit: I like how someone makes up some shit and everyone runs with it without considering it might not be true.

Well, my point was you cant take one person's opinion and apply it to the group.


I do think its pretty nuts to think Brett Jackson is ever getting near Mike Trout.

He does NOT have the physical tools or talent. Not even close.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:15 pm
Posts: 48800
Location: Bohemian Club Annual World Power Consolidation Conference & Golf Outing
pizza_Place: World Fluoridation Conspiracy Pizza & WINGS!
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
So, just so I understand what is happening here, a 2 year-old thread about 100s of players is larger than a thread about a 3-game series or any individual person, most of whom are no longer with the organization?

That is insane.....and so meaningful.
To the best of my knowledge, there is not another section on this board that has that. Not the White Sox section. Not the Bulls section. Not the Bears section. Not the Hawks section.


Bulls and Bears "prospect thread" would be the College sections since they have no minor league organization. The Hawks are not popular. I will say nothing about the White Sox.

So, I suspect you are correct.

There are also many more threads about defensive cover strategies in the Bears section than there are in the Cubs section.

_________________
You know me like that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:10 pm
Posts: 9673
Location: Schaumpton
pizza_Place: Piece Pizza and Brewery
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Northside_Dan wrote:
there really haven't been any prospects of note on the South Side the past few years for you guys to get excited about.
Is that true? Where did all of the younger players on the Sox this year come from?


Most of guys producing on the Sox currently were not as highly rated as most of the failed Cubs prospects. It's really fortunate for the Sox and speaks highly to the development/scouting to find some diamond in the rough type talent.

Plus again, the Sox have been more succesful on the field so it's natural and normal to focus on that product. See the 10+page Division Champ thread already.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, there is not another section on this board that has that. Not the White Sox section. Not the Bulls section. Not the Bears section. Not the Hawks section.


Is there a minor league system in the NFL? I'll start a D League thread today. No one likes hockey, I'm fine with admitting that. I'd love to have a Rockford Ice Hog thread.

_________________
Team Cutler.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 91921
Location: To the left of my post
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
So, just so I understand what is happening here, a 2 year-old thread about 100s of players is larger than a thread about a 3-game series or any individual person, most of whom are no longer with the organization?

That is insane.....and so meaningful.
To the best of my knowledge, there is not another section on this board that has that. Not the White Sox section. Not the Bulls section. Not the Bears section. Not the Hawks section.


Bulls and Bears "prospect thread" would be the College sections since they have no minor league organization. The Hawks are not popular. I will say nothing about the White Sox.

So, I suspect you are correct.

There are also many more threads about defensive cover strategies in the Bears section than there are in the Cubs section.
So you don't think that Cubs fans don't spend an inordinate amount of time paying attention to the minor league teams? Wasn't Ryne Sandburg even covered pretty heavily?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:15 pm
Posts: 48800
Location: Bohemian Club Annual World Power Consolidation Conference & Golf Outing
pizza_Place: World Fluoridation Conspiracy Pizza & WINGS!
What do you consider "inordinate"? Are you saying that Cubs fans care more about their minor league teams than the Major League club?

I think you'd have a hard-time convincing people around the nation that Cub fans don't care, and haven't cared for years, about the Major League team.

_________________
You know me like that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 91921
Location: To the left of my post
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
What do you consider "inordinate"? Are you saying that Cubs fans care more about their minor league teams than the Major League club?
I'm saying that they care more about upcoming prospects than most other teams. This isn't a recent phenomenon. There always seemed to be 2-4 guys in the system who many thought would be the next big thing. For some of them, it was right such as Castro. I probably knew more about Felix Pie than any other minor player ever before he played a game.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:15 pm
Posts: 48800
Location: Bohemian Club Annual World Power Consolidation Conference & Golf Outing
pizza_Place: World Fluoridation Conspiracy Pizza & WINGS!
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
What do you consider "inordinate"? Are you saying that Cubs fans care more about their minor league teams than the Major League club?
I'm saying that they care more about upcoming prospects than most other teams. This isn't a recent phenomenon. There always seemed to be 2-4 guys in the system who many thought would be the next big thing. For some of them, it was right such as Castro. I probably knew more about Felix Pie than any other minor player ever before he played a game.


Well, I'm getting closer to seeing the point you are trying to make. But, you are trying to compartmentalize Cub fans interests.

Cub fans care more about their minors than most because Cub fans care more about their team than most. Cub fans are everywhere. They go to games everywhere. The Cubs are one of the 2 or 3 most popular baseball team in the MLB.

So, it would stand to reason, and I would also agree that they care more about their prospects than most any other team as well.

_________________
You know me like that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:20 am 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 102657
pizza_Place: Vito & Nick's
immessedup17 wrote:
You've got nothing
I gave you 3 quotes and a whole thread full of bullshit. Go reread it if you care you. I gave you plenty more than nothing.

immessedup17 wrote:
edit: I like how someone makes up some shit and everyone runs with it without considering it might not be true.
Nice edit way after the fact too. It wasn't made up, and maybe its because of your previous moronic and uninformed posts on any number of previous subjects that people take things said about you and run with it? No, that couldn't be it...

_________________
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's more fun to be a victim
Caller Bob wrote:
There will never be an effective vaccine. I'll never get one anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:15 pm
Posts: 48800
Location: Bohemian Club Annual World Power Consolidation Conference & Golf Outing
pizza_Place: World Fluoridation Conspiracy Pizza & WINGS!
I think it's interesting that Cub fans can be simultaneously ridiculed for -

A - Being too busy drinking beer to care about the team or who's on it

and

B - Caring too much about the players who are likely going to be on the team

_________________
You know me like that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:10 pm
Posts: 9673
Location: Schaumpton
pizza_Place: Piece Pizza and Brewery
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
I think it's interesting that Cub fans can be simultaneously ridiculed for -

A - Being too busy drinking beer to care about the team or who's on it

and

B - Caring too much about the players who are likely going to be on the team


Boom.

_________________
Team Cutler.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 91921
Location: To the left of my post
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Well, I'm getting closer to seeing the point you are trying to make. But, you are trying to compartmentalize Cub fans interests.

Cub fans care more about their minors than most because Cub fans care more about their team than most. Cub fans are everywhere. They go to games everywhere. The Cubs are one of the 2 or 3 most popular baseball team in the MLB.

So, it would stand to reason, and I would also agree that they care more about their prospects than most any other team as well.
I guess I could have saved a lot of time by saying "Cub fans are better than almost everyone so they care more about the minor league prospects".

rpb will soon be here to argue with you though.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 91921
Location: To the left of my post
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
I think it's interesting that Cub fans can be simultaneously ridiculed for -

A - Being too busy drinking beer to care about the team or who's on it

and

B - Caring too much about the players who are likely going to be on the team
No doubt. The White Sox fans have something similar happen.

A - Being Poor

and

B - Not going to games

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:15 pm
Posts: 48800
Location: Bohemian Club Annual World Power Consolidation Conference & Golf Outing
pizza_Place: World Fluoridation Conspiracy Pizza & WINGS!
Well, we're all in agreement then.

Now I can go back to work.

_________________
You know me like that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81625
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Well, I'm getting closer to seeing the point you are trying to make. But, you are trying to compartmentalize Cub fans interests.

Cub fans care more about their minors than most because Cub fans care more about their team than most. Cub fans are everywhere. They go to games everywhere. The Cubs are one of the 2 or 3 most popular baseball team in the MLB.

So, it would stand to reason, and I would also agree that they care more about their prospects than most any other team as well.
I guess I could have saved a lot of time by saying "Cub fans are better than almost everyone so they care more about the minor league prospects".

rpb will soon be here to argue with you though.

No, Ill let you keep your laughable notion that Cub fans specifically follow prospects more.

Like Doc said in the 90's= Cub fans dont even watch the games!!!

Now= Cub fans are TOO into the team


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:40 am 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 102657
pizza_Place: Vito & Nick's
immessedup17 wrote:
How much of a dumbass are you going to be?


Frank Coztansa wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
You've got nothing
I gave you 3 quotes and a whole thread full of bullshit. Go reread it if you care you. I gave you plenty more than nothing
Who is the dumbass here?

_________________
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's more fun to be a victim
Caller Bob wrote:
There will never be an effective vaccine. I'll never get one anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:52 am 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 102657
pizza_Place: Vito & Nick's
:lol: :lol: OK Imu.

Just because I didn't use the quote function, doesn't mean I didn't quote people. I also posted a link to an entire thread which had exactly what I was talking about scattered throughout pretty much the entire thing.

One of us here is clearly a dumbass, that's for sure. Its not me...

_________________
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's more fun to be a victim
Caller Bob wrote:
There will never be an effective vaccine. I'll never get one anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:04 am 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 102657
pizza_Place: Vito & Nick's
immessedup17 wrote:
And no one is calling any Cubs prospects Hall of Famers. No one.
If you had went back and even glanced at the thread I posted a link to, you would know that this statement is not entirely true.

Good day.

_________________
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's more fun to be a victim
Caller Bob wrote:
There will never be an effective vaccine. I'll never get one anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:16 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 79453
Location: Ravenswood Manor
pizza_Place: Pete's
rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
I dont think Cub fans are different than any other major market team.

A lot of the hype is media driven, not fans.
This is where you need to be realistic. The most replied to thread in the Cubs section here is "Cubs Minor League prospects". What media members post here?

Im sorry. Ill never apologize for following minor leagues and prospects. I do in every sport. Its the same as liking the NFL Draft or College BB for the purposes of the NBA.

I dont think that proves anything.

As a matter of fact, I think you'd find a pretty pessimisitic tone on most prospects in that thread.


Nobody is saying you shouldn't follow prospects. But on the one hand you know intellectually that most top picks are more likely to be Nevin than A-Rod, yet you still "hope". At what point is such hope silly? It's about as valid as hoping my girlfriend turns into Kate Upton.

For example, the White Sox' first pick last year is hitting about a million in Kannapolis. I don't think his name has ever been mentioned in this forum. If it were a Cubs first-rounder there would be multiple threads about him comparing him to Willie Mays and Tris Speaker.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rizzo
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:28 pm
Posts: 29948
Location: SW Burbs
Is this sudden attack of "OMG our club is inferior!!!! Attack everything Cubs!!!!" a coordinated thing or is it truly coincidental?

_________________
FavreFan wrote:
Im pretty hammered right now.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 150 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group