I never liked Santo

Yeah, anybody that is fighting a charity has to be a douche.

_________________

Go to the numbers. If Santo doesn't belong, Morgan should never have been considered.

Hard to hold the low BA for Morgan against him, when he had a career .392 OBP

Thats gettin on base, man!


And he was prolific on the bases

Morgan had better numbers than Santo and he played in the middle infield. Santo is similar to Robin Ventura and Carney Lansford. Morgan is similar to Eddie Collins.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Graig Nettles was a better player than undeserving hall of famer Ron Santo, but you never hear him and his family whining and crying about him not being in the Hall of Fame.

_________________
1923-1927-1928-1932-1936-1937-1938-1939
1941-1943-1947-1949-1950-1951-1952-1953
1956-1958-1961-1962-1977-1978-1996-1998
1999-2000-2009
----------
XXI - XXV - XLII - XLVI

He did not have better numbers. He had a better OBP and more steals. Plus, he played 7 more years than Santo. All the rest of the numbers go to Santo.

He has similar numbers to Santo, except much worse BA and OBP. And he played 7 more seasons than Santo.

Santo's similarity scores;

Dale Murphy (875)
Gary Gaetti (875)
Ken Boyer (874)
Ruben Sierra (865)
Chili Davis (865)
Bobby Bonilla (863)
Brian Downing (862)
Graig Nettles (860)
Scott Rolen (857)
Adrian Beltre (855)

None of those are in the HOF and the only one you could probably make a case for is Dale Murphy. Everybody else is good, not HOF worthy.

More 'stats' that show why some people think Santo doesn't belong;
Black Ink Batting - 11 (218), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink Batting - 147 (92), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 88 (196), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 41 (152), Average HOFer ≈ 50

It's not a Cubs Sox thing. Its not at all absurd to think Santo was not an HOF player.

_________________

Graig Nettles did have prostate cancer, however, so he has that going for him.

_________________
1923-1927-1928-1932-1936-1937-1938-1939
1941-1943-1947-1949-1950-1951-1952-1953
1956-1958-1961-1962-1977-1978-1996-1998
1999-2000-2009
----------
XXI - XXV - XLII - XLVI

There is only one player on that list that played in the 60's, when pitching dominated, Ken Boyer. Hard to compare Adrian Beltre who has played in the steriod era to guys who played in the '60s.

Number of 20 HR seasons...Santo 11, Boyer 8
Number of 100 RBI seasons, Santo 4, Boyer 2

Edge goes to Santo

All these Sox fans talking about Santo and the HOF, mocking the attempts to get him in, yet there was a whole Nellie Fox Society whose aim was to get Fox in the HOF.

I'm glad this rational, reasoned campaign against putting one of the better third basemen ever into the Hall of Fame seems led by fans of the White Sox. It's not Cubs/Sox, though! I guess Frank would know what isn't, since pretty much everything else is.

_________________

Morgan's OBP was 30 points higher than Santo's. Fox was a 12 time All-Star who won an MVP. And they were both played a more demanding defensive position.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Santo is the epitome of borderline. His teams featured 3 other HoFers (4 if you count Durocher) and never even SNIFFED the postseason. Never even came close...the closest they came was 5 games back.

Meanwhile, Morgan was a key cog in the Big Red Machine. Santo and Morgan cannot be compared.

I can completely understand Sox fans' frustration in seeing all of these '69-era Cubs get in. I feel the same way and I'm a Cubs fan. But take solace in the fact that your team is having an exciting year while the Cubs continue to be an embarrassment.

_________________

I don't have an issue with Santo getting in there. But, I'm a Big-Hall guy. It's more fun.

Those cranky old Veteran's Committee guys tho, definitely Small-Hall mentality. The whole HOF process is going to come under a lot of discussion next year. Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Piazza, and Schilling are among the 1st-time nominees. McGwire, Palmeiro and Bagwell are still on there. It wouldn't shock anyone if all of these guys were juicing.

_________________
1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

If OBP is a HOF stat, then come on down Adam Dunn. And Santos career OBP is .362, which is hardly something to complain about, especially considering his power numbers. Morgan had a worse BA, less HR's, less RBI, a lower OPS. They had the same number of gold gloves.

Morgan played an extra 400 games than Santo. That gave him 400 more games to inflate his stats in comparison and was unable to do so. Morgan was on one of the best teams ever which inflated his stats and importance. I bet you didn't know he actually played for the Houston Astros for longer than the Reds. Morgan is in the HOF because of 2 great seasons, not because of his career.

You're missing the point. Morgan was a 2B. End of story.

_________________
1926-1931-1934-1942-1944-1946-1964-1967-1982-2006-2011

Any new Buicks?

_________________

Because it isn't true. He played at least 100 more games for the Reds. And you're the only guy in the entire world- probably including Santo's own family- who actually believes Santo is a more deserving Hall of Famer than Joe Morgan. Santo is the epitome of a borderline guy. Morgan is arguably the best second baseman in history.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Spent 10 years in Houston. 8 in Cinci. And you cannot sit and argue Nellie Fox and argue against Santo.

Whatever. He played about ten games in two of those Houston Seasons. He's a Red.

I think Nellie is a borderline guy too, but slightly more deserving than Santo. I could live without either of them in there. Minoso belongs more than both of them.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

We will have to disagree here, obviously.

They were all basically the same era, though. If you want to argue that Nellie and Minnie were the one of the best at their position in that era, then I would agree with you. But so was Santo. But if you compare them the current era, like you do with Santo, then they aren't even close. Santos numbers still hold up to being a very good baseman in today's game.

To me, Santo and Eddie Mathews created the 3B mold the way it is today. His numbers were fantastic for what was a short career in comparison to the era.

Edit: I would like to point out that I do not believe Santo was as good as Eddie Mathews, just that they were the first of the power hitting 3b.

Killebrew had pretty good power.

Anyway, Minoso was probably the second best outfielder in the AL during his prime which was cut short at the start due to the color line. It's ironic that if Minnie had played his entire career in the Negro Leagues he'd almost certainly be a Hall of Famer.

I'd consider Santo better than guys like Nettles, Boyer, Rader, Ventura, and Lansford, but only marginally so.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

SuperBalls!


(I agree on Santo)

I'm a Sox fan and think Santo is HOF worthy. He's about the 10th best 3B of all-time. That's good enough for me. If you were in the top 10 (or 15) of any position, you are HOF worthy IMO. People think 3B is a bastion for big sluggers, but it really is not. Very few of them.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I would put Rolen and Murphy in for sure and Beltre if he had a few more good years.

Santo was held up because he was the 4th HOFer from the Cubs of that era. How can you have 4 HOFers from a team that never won anything?

_________________

Similarity scores are silly. Santo essentially played in a dead-ball era.

Santo's OPS+ was 125
Gaetti's was 97, below league average.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Look at Curious Hair sticking up for all things Cubbie like some uneducated SEC hick.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

"one of the better" 3rd basemen means just that. I don't care if Santo is in the HOF or not. Some of the numbers show he should be in there, and some of them have him falling short. This started out as a rational, reasonable discussion with people posting nothing more than his stats. Take whatever side of the argument you want. He's a boderline guy, but he got in. Yippi.

_________________