I guess we'll just have to disagree.

I think it's more impressive to win the World Series than it is to make 2 extra playoff appearances.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I truly believe that the playoffs are random, its not a Sox thing.


Its just that the playoffs are such a small percentage of the season. By far the lowest pct of the major sports.


I think quality in MLB is better judged over 162 games, then over three weeks in October


Obviously, Id take the WS title over 2 playoff appearances. But I think there is more luck/happenstance involved in that, compared to a 162 game season


FWIW, The Sox are a little better than I thought. Id put them about 10th in the last 20 years.

(Also, they have a lot of wins for only winning 4 division titles)

That's not how it works though. The goal is to win the World Series. You accomplish that goal, you deserve more credit than some genius in Oakland that builds a team that makes the playoffs and then gets swept.
That's why I don't think it's ludicrous for White Sox fans to think they have a good organization. Under almost any metric, they are a top 10 organization, except for the minor league rankings, which are obviously the most important.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Your Hawk-like dismissal/jealousy of Billy Beane aside, the numbers agree with what Im saying.

MLB could have a 1 game playoff between the two best teams to decide the World Series, that wouldnt be a great way of determining the best team though.

3 series is not a lot better.


And If you make it 24 years, instead of the arbitrary 20, the A's add a WS win and 3 appearances. So layoff Oak-Town

The day they start declaring the champion the winner of the regular season is the day that I start to think that making the playoffs is equal to winning the World Series.
We have to choose some time period. 20 years seems fair.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

No one thinks that. You are doing what you accused LeashYourKids of doing earlier.

Its really simple and not MY philosophy, just one I happen to agree with.



Well, the team you are talking about just came off a crazy dominant run right before your time period. So if you're picking on them, Im sure an A's fan would say "we were way better over the last 25"

The point is that I do not accept the idea that making the playoffs should be viewed the same as making the playoffs and winning the World Series. I think you are misusing the fact that there is an inherent randomness in any playoff.

You are literally saying that the Astros are a better organization because they have 2 more playoff appearances even though they have one less World Series victory.
They'd be right. So what? I have no problem acknowledging the fact that the A's prior to Beane were awesome.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

That being the case, when the time comes in October, I want you standing up in this very forum alongside Boilermaker Rick and myself and shouting down those who say the Sox have no chance against the Yankees or the Rangers.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Im offended that you think I wouldnt do that anyway (If the White Sox make the post season)


I dont think its 100% random. I do think you can lean towards the better regular season team...but it rarely works out that way.

...and if the White Sox get swept he needs to be on here saying that it is not the fault of anyone and that they had just as good of a season as the team that goes on to win it all.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You are literally saying that the Astros are a better organization because they have 2 more playoff appearances even though they have one less World Series victory.[/code]
No, Im not saying that. The Astros maybe. I didnt do a whole list.

High pathetically though, what if the 2005 WS went 7 games?
Would that one game be a huge difference judging an organization over 20 years?

I understand the results are the results but I think you have to weigh the randomness.


They'd be right. So what? I have no problem acknowledging the fact that the A's prior to Beane were awesome.[/quote]
Lets stop discussing the A's because you clearly have a bias against Beane.

I didnt say 100% random

So youre going Obtuse Boilermaker Rick full time now?

When winning the World Series is the goal from the start then it gets weighed fairly heavily. Now, it's not the only factor as the Marlins or Diamondbacks have proven but it gets the most weight in these rankings.

To put it another way, the Astros, A's, Rays, and a bunch of other "good organizations" would trade resumes with the White Sox over the past 20 years in a second. The White Sox would not do the same.
You brought up how they were a dominant team before Beane got there.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I didn't say you said 100% random either.

You are arguing that the playoffs are so random that we should judge teams on playoff appearances and not on what they do in those playoffs. Therefore, if the Sox get swept, it isn't that big of a deal because that is just what happens.

That really is the problem here. The 2012 White Sox will be judged the same by you if they make the playoffs or if they win the World Series.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

No, I brought up the A's from 90-92

You specifically said, you have no problem giving them credit outside of Beane's tenure.



And Rick, if you dont believe in the randomness of the playoffs, that's fine.

I do. A lot of people do. We just disagree.

You even admit it with the Marlins and Diamondbacks. So I think you for agreeing with me.

I believe there is randomness in any playoffs, and baseball probably has more of it, but I think you are misusing the concept to basically say that results in the playoffs don't matter and don't show anything of value.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Nope. Wrong again.

Youre really having a hard time with this.


Its not 100% or 0%

I dont completely dismiss playoff performance and I havent suggested that.

I just think when taking a longview of an organization, consistent post season appearances is a better barometer.

You're getting closer and closer to making the jump from purposely obtuse to flat out lying about people's positions.

Not sure why you have such a problem with people disagreeing with you.

Before you get more offended I'll simply post this quote of yours from earlier.

We'll know if the Sox are a good team not if they win the title but if they make the playoffs.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm sorry, did you cut that quote off?

Im not seeing the part where I said to dismiss the post-season entirely

See thats the issue.

I say that regular season is a better way of judging a team and you turn it into "rpb thinks the post season is completely meaningless"

Just like you told LeashYourKids earlier, when you do that, you're not even worth conversing with.


This all started because you got offended when I correctly described Sox fan homerism. Your homerism took over and you just jumped in.

You have completely misrepresneted my position, a couple different ways since then. Way more than I could have exaggerated Sox fan's homerism. Quite ironic, actually

Fair enough. I will drop out of this discussion.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Also, there's a chance....I could be wrong


Cant wait for October, regardless!

I think the best team for the task wins the majority of the time. The same team that is better over 162 games may not be better for a seven game series. It all has to do with the pitching. A team with five Ryan Dempsters might be better in the regular season than a team with Two Verlanders and three Chris Volstads, but I'll take my chances with the two Verlanders in the postseason. But everybody knows the format beforehand. It isn't like GMs aren't trying to build teams that can compete well in the playoffs. I think there's a little less luck involved than you probably do.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Which is why it was pointless to replace Jim Hendry with Theo.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

And Ill admit that I go back and forth in how much luck is involved. But every time I think I have it figured out the built for post season team loses.


And there is also the danger that the 2 Verlander team doesn't make the post season. I mean take last years Phillies.


And just because its random doesn't mean there aren't ways to try and win.

I believe a dominant closer and power pitching is the best bet

Actually that speaks FOR Epstein. He got his team in the playoffs at a way higher percentage.


And I hope your not co signing Ricks thought that the post season is to be dismissed. I didn't say that or anything close to it.

Im pretty sure you understand that my point about the longview of an organization.

Yes winning the world series is better than not winning it.

The question is how much weight the title gets

Are the Marlins a better organization than the Braves?

I don't think they are

Playoffs can be judged but its important to keep in mind how small a sample size it is. The max number of games possible is 1/8th of the regular season.

I think everything has to be taken into consideration. When the Sox were over .500 seventeen seasons in a row during the 50s and 60s and made the postseason only once, losing a World Series, I'd say they were a pretty excellent franchise.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I dont think either of the Cardinal teams to win it the last few years were the best teams. More of a got hot at the right time. Werent they 82 and 80 and made the playoffs on the last day of the season in 06? and they were 1 strike away from losing the Series a couple times last year no? Id say definetly more lucky than good in those 2 recent cases.

_________________
Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

Completely agree they weren't the best teams...I'd say they certainly had the best team in '04 and I could probably make a case for '05 as well, but it doesn't matter as they didn't win it all.

The '06 team was a complete fluke...83-78, backing into the playoffs...Jeff Weaver and Anthony Reyes were two of the four starters in the postseason...LOL. Ronnie Belliard, Preston Wilson and So Taguchi were in the starting lineup for Game 1...Edmonds and Rolen were shells of their former selves all season long...good lord I forgot how overachieving that team was come October.

Last years team was insane for almost completely different reasons...make a frantic late season charge to get into the postseason and then watch as their starting pitchers suddenly forget how to make it past five innings. Of course, having David Freese and Allen Fucking Craig play out of their minds and a makeshift bullpen kick ass helps.

But I'd say they did enough to get in and then they were the best at the right time. And that's the object of the game. Rather than winning 116 regular season games.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don