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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
"When All You Ever Wanted Isn't Enough" by Kushner. Great book and it's available on Amazon real cheap.

Maybe you just want to reassess what you are looking for. Perhaps it's already there.


Thanks. Sometimes it's attitude and perspective like anything else. There are things I'd like to do but do not really have time for. I enjoy it most of the time.

Lol @ spanky. :P


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:40 pm 
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conns7901 wrote:
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Derrick Rose ‏@drose
I don't like that fact that OUR kids are not in school and that's the only thing we have to SAVE these kids.


I wonder how much they pay the ACT stand-ins?


:lol: Was my first thought. It took a bogus ACT and a grade change to get him into Kentucky.

Memphis, actually, but remember that the charges against Derrek Lee were never proven.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:47 am 
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I haven't had much time to contribute to this discussion, but I wanted to echo the sentiments of those who have argued that this conflict is about something much bigger than a pay raise. Over the past several years, the city--first under Daley and Duncan, now under Emanuel--has attempted to transform the school system by enforcing a corporate ethos that will have uncertain or negative effects on students. The article below, published in 2008, provides some excellent background information on the conditions that have developed to shape the current confrontation between the teachers' union and the city. It's co-written by Henry Giroux, arguably the world's most important educational/pedagodical theorist, and nicely complements the article that Apologist referenced on the previous page of this thread.
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Obama's Betrayal of Public Education? Arne Duncan and the Corporate Model of Schooling

by: Henry A. Giroux and Kenneth Saltman

Since the 1980s, but particularly under the Bush administration, certain elements of the religious right, corporate culture and Republican right wing have argued that free public education represents either a massive fraud or a contemptuous failure. Far from a genuine call for reform, these attacks largely stem from an attempt to transform schools from a public investment to a private good, answerable not to the demands and values of a democratic society but to the imperatives of the marketplace. As the educational historian David Labaree rightly argues, public schools have been under attack in the last decade "not just because they are deemed ineffective but because they are public."[1] Right-wing efforts to disinvest in public schools as critical sites of teaching and learning and govern them according to corporate interests is obvious in the emphasis on standardized testing, the use of top-down curricular mandates, the influx of advertising in schools, the use of profit motives to "encourage" student performance, the attack on teacher unions and modes of pedagogy that stress rote learning and memorization. For the Bush administration, testing has become the ultimate accountability measure, belying the complex mechanisms of teaching and learning. The hidden curriculum is that testing be used as a ploy to de-skill teachers by reducing them to mere technicians, that students be similarly reduced to customers in the marketplace rather than as engaged, critical learners and that always underfunded public schools fail so that they can eventually be privatized. But there is an even darker side to the reforms initiated under the Bush administration and now used in a number of school systems throughout the country. As the logic of the market and "the crime complex"[2] frame the field of social relations in schools, students are subjected to three particularly offensive policies, defended by school authorities and politicians under the rubric of school safety. First, students are increasingly subjected to zero-tolerance policies that are used primarily to punish, repress and exclude them. Second, they are increasingly absorbed into a "crime complex" in which security staff, using harsh disciplinary practices, now displace the normative functions teachers once provided both in and outside of the classroom.[3] Third, more and more schools are breaking down the space between education and juvenile delinquency, substituting penal pedagogies for critical learning and replacing a school culture that fosters a discourse of possibility with a culture of fear and social control. Consequently, many youth of color in urban school systems, because of harsh zero-tolerance polices, are not just being suspended or expelled from school. They are being ushered into the dark precincts of juvenile detention centers, adult courts and prison. Surely, the dismantling of this corporatized and militarized model of schooling should be a top priority under the Obama administration. Unfortunately, Obama has appointed as his secretary of education someone who actually embodies this utterly punitive, anti-intellectual, corporatized and test-driven model of schooling.

Barack Obama's selection of Arne Duncan for secretary of education does not bode well either for the political direction of his administration nor for the future of public education. Obama's call for change falls flat with this appointment, not only because Duncan largely defines schools within a market-based and penal model of pedagogy, but also because he does not have the slightest understanding of schools as something other than adjuncts of the corporation at best or the prison at worse. The first casualty in this scenario is a language of social and political responsibility capable of defending those vital institutions that expand the rights, public goods and services central to a meaningful democracy. This is especially true with respect to the issue of public schooling and the ensuing debate over the purpose of education, the role of teachers as critical intellectuals, the politics of the curriculum and the centrality of pedagogy as a moral and political practice.

Duncan, CEO of the Chicago Public Schools, presided over the implementation and expansion of an agenda that militarized and corporatized the third largest school system in the nation, one that is about 90 percent poor and nonwhite. Under Duncan, Chicago took the lead in creating public schools run as military academies, vastly expanded draconian student expulsions, instituted sweeping surveillance practices, advocated a growing police presence in the schools, arbitrarily shut down entire schools and fired entire school staffs. A recent report, "Education on Lockdown," claimed that partly under Duncan's leadership "Chicago Public Schools (CPS) has become infamous for its harsh zero tolerance policies. Although there is no verified positive impact on safety, these policies have resulted in tens of thousands of student suspensions and an exorbitant number of expulsions."[4] Duncan's neoliberal ideology is on full display in the various connections he has established with the ruling political and business elite in Chicago.[5] He led the Renaissance 2010 plan, which was created for Mayor Daley by the Commercial Club of Chicago - an organization representing the largest businesses in the city. The purpose of Renaissance 2010 was to increase the number of high quality schools that would be subject to new standards of accountability - a code word for legitimating more charter schools and high stakes testing in the guise of hard-nosed empiricism. Chicago's 2010 plan targets 15 percent of the city district's alleged underachieving schools in order to dismantle them and open 100 new experimental schools in areas slated for gentrification. Most of the new experimental schools have eliminated the teacher union. The Commercial Club hired corporate consulting firm A.T. Kearney to write Ren2010, which called for the closing of 100 public schools and the reopening of privatized charter schools, contract schools (more charters to circumvent state limits) and "performance" schools. Kearney's web site is unapologetic about its business-oriented notion of leadership, one that John Dewey thought should be avoided at all costs. It states, "Drawing on our program-management skills and our knowledge of best practices used across industries, we provided a private-sector perspective on how to address many of the complex issues that challenge other large urban education transformations."[6]

Duncan's advocacy of the Renaissance 2010 plan alone should have immediately disqualified him for the Obama appointment. At the heart of this plan is a privatization scheme for creating a "market" in public education by urging public schools to compete against each other for scarce resources and by introducing "choice" initiatives so that parents and students will think of themselves as private consumers of educational services.[7] As a result of his support of the plan, Duncan came under attack by community organizations, parents, education scholars and students. These diverse critics have denounced it as a scheme less designed to improve the quality of schooling than as a plan for privatization, union busting and the dismantling of democratically-elected local school councils. They also describe it as part of neighborhood gentrification schemes involving the privatization of public housing projects through mixed finance developments.[8] (Tony Rezko, an Obama and Blagojevich campaign supporter, made a fortune from these developments along with many corporate investors.) Some of the dimensions of public school privatization involve Renaissance schools being run by subcontracted for-profit companies - a shift in school governance from teachers and elected community councils to appointed administrators coming disproportionately from the ranks of business. It also establishes corporate control over the selection and model of new schools, giving the business elite and their foundations increasing influence over educational policy. No wonder that Duncan had the support of David Brooks, the conservative op-ed writer for The New York Times.

One particularly egregious example of Duncan's vision of education can be seen in the conference he organized with the Renaissance Schools Fund. In May 2008, the Renaissance Schools Fund, the financial wing of the Renaissance 2010 plan operating under the auspices of the Commercial Club, held a symposium, "Free to Choose, Free to Succeed: The New Market in Public Education," at the exclusive private club atop the Aon Center. The event was held largely by and for the business sector, school privatization advocates, and others already involved in Renaissance 2010, such as corporate foundations and conservative think tanks. Significantly, no education scholars were invited to participate in the proceedings, although it was heavily attended by fellows from the pro-privatization Fordham Foundation and featured speakers from various school choice organizations and the leadership of corporations. Speakers clearly assumed the audience shared their views.

Without irony, Arne Duncan characterized the goal of Renaissance 2010 creating the new market in public education as a "movement for social justice." He invoked corporate investment terms to describe reforms explaining that the 100 new schools would leverage influence on the other 500 schools in Chicago. Redefining schools as stock investments he said, "I am not a manager of 600 schools. I'm a portfolio manager of 600 schools and I'm trying to improve the portfolio." He claimed that education can end poverty. He explained that having a sense of altruism is important, but that creating good workers is a prime goal of educational reform and that the business sector has to embrace public education. "We're trying to blur the lines between the public and the private," he said. He argued that a primary goal of educational reform is to get the private sector to play a huge role in school change in terms of both money and intellectual capital. He also attacked the Chicago Teachers Union (CTU), positioning it as an obstacle to business-led reform. He also insisted that the CTU opposes charter schools (and, hence, change itself), despite the fact that the CTU runs ten such schools under Renaissance 2010. Despite the representation in the popular press of Duncan as conciliatory to the unions, his statements and those of others at the symposium belied a deep hostility to teachers unions and a desire to end them (all of the charters created under Ren2010 are deunionized). Thus, in Duncan's attempts to close and transform low-performing schools, he not only reinvents them as entrepreneurial schools, but, in many cases, frees "them from union contracts and some state regulations."[9] Duncan effusively praised one speaker, Michael Milkie, the founder of the Nobel Street charter schools, who openly called for the closing and reopening of every school in the district precisely to get rid of the unions. What became clear is that Duncan views Renaissance 2010 as a national blueprint for educational reform, but what is at stake in this vision is the end of schooling as a public good and a return to the discredited and tired neoliberal model of reform that conservatives love to embrace.

In spite of the corporate rhetoric of accountability, efficiency and excellence, there is to date no evidence that the radical reforms under Duncan's tenure as the "CEO" of Chicago Public Schools have created any significant improvement. In part, this is because the Chicago Public Schools and the Renaissance Schools Fund report data in obscurantist ways to make traditional comparisons difficult if not impossible.[10] And, in part, examples of educational claims to school improvement are being made about schools embedded in communities that suffered dislocation and removal through coordinated housing privatization and gentrification policies. For example, the city has decimated public housing in coveted real estate enclaves, dispossessing thousands of residents of their communities. Once the poor are removed, the urban cleansing provides an opportunity for Duncan to open a number of Renaissance Schools, catering to those socio-economically empowered families whose children would surely improve the city's overall test scores. What are alleged to be school improvements under Ren2010, rest on an increase in the city's overall test scores and other performance measures that parodies the financial shell game corporations used to inflate profit margins - and prospects for future catastrophes are as inevitable. In the end, all Duncan leaves us with is a Renaissance 2010 model of education that is celebrated as a business designed "to save kids" from a failed public system. In fact, it condemns public schooling, administrators, teachers and students to a now outmoded and discredited economic model of reform that can only imagine education as a business, teachers as entrepreneurs and students as customers.[11]

It is difficult to understand how Barack Obama can reconcile his vision of change with Duncan's history of supporting a corporate vision for school reform and a penchant for extreme zero-tolerance polices - both of which are much closer to the retrograde policies hatched in conservative think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation, Cato Institution, Fordham Foundation, American Enterprise Institute, than to the values of the many millions who voted for the democratic change he promised. As is well known, these think tanks share an agenda not for strengthening public schooling, but for dismantling it and replacing it with a private market in consumable educational services. At the heart of Duncan's vision of school reform is a corporatized model of education that cancels out the democratic impulses and practices of civil society by either devaluing or absorbing them within the logic of the market or the prison. No longer a space for relating schools to the obligations of public life, social responsibility to the demands of critical and engaged citizenship, schools in this dystopian vision legitimate an all-encompassing horizon for producing market identities, values and those privatizing and penal pedagogies that both inflate the importance of individualized competition and punish those who do not fit into its logic of pedagogical Darwinism.[12]

In spite of what Duncan argues, the greatest threat to our children does not come from lowered standards, the absence of privatized choice schemes or the lack of rigid testing measures that offer the aura of accountability. On the contrary, it comes from a society that refuses to view children as a social investment, consigns 13 million children to live in poverty, reduces critical learning to massive testing programs, promotes policies that eliminate most crucial health and public services and defines rugged individualism through the degrading celebration of a gun culture, extreme sports and the spectacles of violence that permeate corporate controlled media industries. Students are not at risk because of the absence of market incentives in the schools. Young people are under siege in American schools because, in the absence of funding, equal opportunity and real accountability, far too many of them have increasingly become institutional breeding grounds for racism, right-wing paramilitary cultures, social intolerance and sexism.[13] We live in a society in which a culture of testing, punishment and intolerance has replaced a culture of social responsibility and compassion. Within such a climate of harsh discipline and disdain for critical teaching and learning, it is easier to subject young people to a culture of faux accountability or put them in jail rather than to provide the education, services and care they need to face problems of a complex and demanding society.[14] What Duncan and other neoliberal economic advocates refuse to address is what it would mean for a viable educational policy to provide reasonable support services for all students and viable alternatives for the troubled ones. The notion that children should be viewed as a crucial social resource - one that represents, for any healthy society, important ethical and political considerations about the quality of public life, the allocation of social provisions and the role of the state as a guardian of public interests - appears to be lost in a society that refuses to invest in its youth as part of a broader commitment to a fully realized democracy. As the social order becomes more privatized and militarized, we increasingly face the problem of losing a generation of young people to a system of increasing intolerance, repression and moral indifference. It is difficult to understand why Obama would appoint as secretary of education someone who believes in a market-driven model that has not only failed young people, but given the current financial crisis has been thoroughly discredited. Unless Duncan is willing to reinvent himself, the national agenda he will develop for education embodies and exacerbates these problems and, as such, it will leave a lot more kids behind than it helps.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:10 am 
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spanky wrote:
*RPB has blurred the lines between daily schedules and "having summers off". Yes, keep repeating the summers off thing - you're really breaking ground. "Summers off" are two months for almost all teachers: mid-June to mid August, give or take. Again, teachers make less than most other degreed professions, especially in the first 15-20 years - therefore the "9 month schedule". Most teachers take 2nd jobs, sometimes via coaching/tutoring/etc, or just in other areas. I understand that they have the time to do that, but just realize that teachers get paid 75% of what a lot of other professions make.


I side with the teachers, but the "summers off" argument has always bothered me. Based on the "summer's off" argument, teachers may make 25% less than other professions because they work 25% less during the year. If a teacher makes $45,000 per year, for 9 months work, that comes out to $57,000 per year, if it was a 12 month position. Not too shabby.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:59 am 
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Besides summers they get a week off in March, 2 weeks at Christmas and every holiday off.

And if they coach or work summer school they get paid extra. They don't volunteer for that. It's more money.

And they get the same raises and ability to keep their jobs whether they are the best or worst.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:32 am 
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spanky wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
No, I'm out the door tomorrow if I don't keep the bosses happy.

This could happen to me too.

Just out of curiosity, who do you think my bosses are? Who should I "keep happy"?


I'm positive it's Mrs Spanky. Get back in the kitchen and make her a sandwich while you're at it too.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:46 am 
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spanky wrote:
*Some here know my real name. .


They're on to you. I cannot find Pat Mc Groin anywhere on the list.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:58 am 
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spanky wrote:

*RPB has blurred the lines between daily schedules and "having summers off". Yes, keep repeating the summers off thing - you're really breaking ground.

Im not trying to break ground. Im stating that they have a favorable schedule.

spanky wrote:
"Summers off" are two months for almost all teachers: mid-June to mid August, give or take. Again, teachers make less than most other degreed professions, especially in the first 15-20 years - therefore the "9 month schedule". Most teachers take 2nd jobs, sometimes via coaching/tutoring/etc, or just in other areas. I understand that they have the time to do that, but just realize that teachers get paid 75% of what a lot of other professions make.

Ok, so they have a favorable schedule but their profession isnt one of the higher paying ones.

My main point is, complaining about a longer day will garner very little sympathy with non teachers.


spanky wrote:
However, in this specific case, if the agreement has always been "teachers will get paid X-amount of $$$ for a certain work week" then I don't see how it's unreasonable that the teachers want a significant raise to work......25% more? Along those lines, has anyone actually seen how this supposed 16% raise comes about? I've seen 4 year breakdowns that usually look some like 2%, 2%, 3%, 3%. Or something similar. That's......not 16%?

Yeah, that's not.



spanky wrote:
*I may have misread this, but RPB are you saying you work 80-hr weeks in your single job, therefore no teacher works that long? (or something like that) I'm gonna throw the flag on that. I don't know the exact details of your main job, but this simply cannot be true. 80 hours a week?

No, I was saying a teacher who is off for 2 months would have to work 80 hours per week to match what I do in 12 months. I work from 60-65 every week.

Maybe I just happen to know a tiny percentage of teachers that dont work a second job and openly admit that summers off was a big perk of the job.

But whatever, Im all for the teachers getting what they deserve. My issue is, it seems like the extra hour of school and ONLY getting a 16% raise are the main issues. I dont have a ton of sympathy for those things. I think they would be better off to focus on the too many kids per class, unfair performance reviews etc.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:00 am 
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Killer V wrote:
spanky wrote:
*RPB has blurred the lines between daily schedules and "having summers off". Yes, keep repeating the summers off thing - you're really breaking ground. "Summers off" are two months for almost all teachers: mid-June to mid August, give or take. Again, teachers make less than most other degreed professions, especially in the first 15-20 years - therefore the "9 month schedule". Most teachers take 2nd jobs, sometimes via coaching/tutoring/etc, or just in other areas. I understand that they have the time to do that, but just realize that teachers get paid 75% of what a lot of other professions make.


I side with the teachers, but the "summers off" argument has always bothered me. Based on the "summer's off" argument, teachers may make 25% less than other professions because they work 25% less during the year. If a teacher makes $45,000 per year, for 9 months work, that comes out to $57,000 per year, if it was a 12 month position. Not too shabby.

Plus, its a 9-10 month job right?

I mean if you take a job where you will make X amount per year, you took a job making that much per year. The fact that you dont work for two months is just creative European style vacation.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:00 am 
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cubbiegirlshamus wrote:
And if they coach or work summer school they get paid extra. They don't volunteer for that. It's more money..


Never fall for that argument. If you average out the per hour pay of even the least interested coaches it is less than minimum wage. It's nice to be paid for something that they would probably do anyway but it's chump change. I think about my high school experience. My coaches coached 2-4 hours per day 5 days per week. On Saturdays we always played double headers where we were basically at the school from 8-4. Baseball season was from February-June with additional time in the fall and morning weight lifting in January-February. I seem to remember hearing my coach made $1,500 extra for the work.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:14 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:

My main point is, complaining about a longer day will garner very little sympathy with non teachers.


The CTU actually supports a longer school day, but it opposed Emanuel's attempt to impose it unilaterally. They also want proper compensation for the increased hours. The school day will be lengthened by about 25%, and right now the unions will take a 16% pay increase (allegedly) over four years.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:17 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Killer V wrote:
spanky wrote:
*RPB has blurred the lines between daily schedules and "having summers off". Yes, keep repeating the summers off thing - you're really breaking ground. "Summers off" are two months for almost all teachers: mid-June to mid August, give or take. Again, teachers make less than most other degreed professions, especially in the first 15-20 years - therefore the "9 month schedule". Most teachers take 2nd jobs, sometimes via coaching/tutoring/etc, or just in other areas. I understand that they have the time to do that, but just realize that teachers get paid 75% of what a lot of other professions make.


I side with the teachers, but the "summers off" argument has always bothered me. Based on the "summer's off" argument, teachers may make 25% less than other professions because they work 25% less during the year. If a teacher makes $45,000 per year, for 9 months work, that comes out to $57,000 per year, if it was a 12 month position. Not too shabby.

Plus, its a 9-10 month job right?

I mean if you take a job where you will make X amount per year, you took a job making that much per year. The fact that you dont work for two months is just creative European style vacation.


Killer V's argument only works if the teachers are compensated at their current level of compensation for their current hours. If their work day is extended by 25% (as it apparently will be), but they receive only a 16% pay increase (over four years), then they are effectively taking a pay cut on an hourly basis.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:18 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:

My main point is, complaining about a longer day will garner very little sympathy with non teachers.


The CTU actually supports a longer school day, but it opposed Emanuel's attempt to impose it unilaterally. They also want proper compensation for the increased hours. The school day will be lengthened by about 25%, and right now the unions will take a 16% pay increase (allegedly) over four years.

Im trying to keep my personal situation and bias out of it, but I had a job that was about 5-6 hours a day and then it became 9-10 hours a day with no raise. I was probably making too much for the 5-6 and then became underpaid for the 9-10.


I think they should get whatever they can


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:31 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Killer V wrote:
spanky wrote:
*RPB has blurred the lines between daily schedules and "having summers off". Yes, keep repeating the summers off thing - you're really breaking ground. "Summers off" are two months for almost all teachers: mid-June to mid August, give or take. Again, teachers make less than most other degreed professions, especially in the first 15-20 years - therefore the "9 month schedule". Most teachers take 2nd jobs, sometimes via coaching/tutoring/etc, or just in other areas. I understand that they have the time to do that, but just realize that teachers get paid 75% of what a lot of other professions make.


I side with the teachers, but the "summers off" argument has always bothered me. Based on the "summer's off" argument, teachers may make 25% less than other professions because they work 25% less during the year. If a teacher makes $45,000 per year, for 9 months work, that comes out to $57,000 per year, if it was a 12 month position. Not too shabby.

Plus, its a 9-10 month job right?

I mean if you take a job where you will make X amount per year, you took a job making that much per year. The fact that you dont work for two months is just creative European style vacation.


Killer V's argument only works if the teachers are compensated at their current level of compensation for their current hours. If their work day is extended by 25% (as it apparently will be), but they receive only a 16% pay increase (over four years), then they are effectively taking a pay cut on an hourly basis.


Agreed. However it's not realistic these days to expect to be paid proportionately for the time/effort you put in.

In my case, my pay has been frozen for two years (not even a minimal cost-of-living bump) and they're trying to extend the freeze. Meanwhile, people here are retiring and not being replaced, increasing my workload/hours on a monthly basis.

Try to get what you can, but be realistic about it.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:43 am 
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cubbiegirlshamus wrote:
And if they coach or work summer school they get paid extra. They don't volunteer for that. It's more money.


I can't speak for CPS, but I can for very-very-small-town districts, and a lot of those extracurriculars that teachers take on only yield stipends or are uncompensated altogether. An untenured teacher can sign up for coaching cheerleading, and then find one's arm twisted into doing homecoming, student council, and academic bowl, with nothing to show for it but not being fired.

Very interesting article, Tall Midget. I agree with a lot of it, though we have to fix this thing one way or another; the status quo is unacceptable. The part about investing in a future generation is so key. One of the reasons Scott Walker drove me up the fucking wall was that his commitment to ruining Wisconsin education (and Wisconsin had always been a pretty good education state, not counting my shitty high school) was unbelievably short-sighted and self-destructive. Wisconsin, as it is, faces a brain drain to Chicago, Minneapolis, and points beyond the region. To make teaching in Wisconsin even more unrewarding will either send prospective teachers to different professions or to teach elsewhere. Extrapolate this over enough time and you've turned Wisconsin into Mississippi. More so! And when you're about to do that, you've betrayed your commitment to the public and need to be forcibly removed from office.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:51 am 
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Killer V wrote:
In my case, my pay has been frozen for two years (not even a minimal cost-of-living bump) and they're trying to extend the freeze. Meanwhile, people here are retiring and not being replaced, increasing my workload/hours on a monthly basis.


Aside from the issues other than the raises/compensation I think this sums it up right here. Over the last 5 years how many millions of people have been in pay freeze or minimal raise situations. Myself I have been in an every other year 3% bump routine. Sure I make plenty but not getting even CPI bumps every year blows. This is why the teachers and other unions garner little sympathy in these matters regardless of other issues.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:52 am 
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Killer V wrote:
Agreed. However it's not realistic these days to expect to be paid proportionately for the time/effort you put in.

In my case, my pay has been frozen for two years (not even a minimal cost-of-living bump) and they're trying to extend the freeze. Meanwhile, people here are retiring and not being replaced, increasing my workload/hours on a monthly basis.

Try to get what you can, but be realistic about it.


Initially the teachers wanted a 30% increase for the extended workday, but are apparently OK with the 16% raise over four years. I'm pretty sure this means that they'll be working 25% longer for only 3-4% more salary in year one of the new contract. It seems like they are being pretty realistic about the wages issue, then, especially since Emanuel reneged on his promise of a cost-of-living raise last year.

In any event, I think there is overwhelming evidence that this dispute encompasses much more than a squabble over wages. Emanuel really is trying to bust the union and implement a series of changes that will likely have a negative impact on students. I am especially skeptical of his advocacy of increased dependence on standardized testing for teacher and student evaluation. As someone who works in higher education, I can say conclusively that the most successful college students are those who can think dynamically--analytically and creatively--not those who have the most practice at rote memorization. Based on my experience, standardized testing impedes the development of crucial analytical and creative skills.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:54 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
spanky wrote:
*I may have misread this, but RPB are you saying you work 80-hr weeks in your single job, therefore no teacher works that long? (or something like that) I'm gonna throw the flag on that. I don't know the exact details of your main job, but this simply cannot be true. 80 hours a week?

No, I was saying a teacher who is off for 2 months would have to work 80 hours per week to match what I do in 12 months. I work from 60-65 every week.

Maybe I just happen to know a tiny percentage of teachers that dont work a second job and openly admit that summers off was a big perk of the job.

But whatever, Im all for the teachers getting what they deserve. My issue is, it seems like the extra hour of school and ONLY getting a 16% raise are the main issues. I dont have a ton of sympathy for those things. I think they would be better off to focus on the too many kids per class, unfair performance reviews etc.

I figured I probably messed that up, but had no idea what page it was on and didn't want to go back and look.
I agree, having summers off is a "perk", but with the understanding that it is an unpaid perk.

And GD is right, I'd say the majority of coaches are making less than minimum wage when all of the hours are taken into account. There are some over-paid coaches for sports that receive too much emphasis.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:00 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Killer V wrote:
In my case, my pay has been frozen for two years (not even a minimal cost-of-living bump) and they're trying to extend the freeze. Meanwhile, people here are retiring and not being replaced, increasing my workload/hours on a monthly basis.


Aside from the issues other than the raises/compensation I think this sums it up right here. Over the last 5 years how many millions of people have been in pay freeze or minimal raise situations. Myself I have been in an every other year 3% bump routine. Sure I make plenty but not getting even CPI bumps every year blows. This is why the teachers and other unions garner little sympathy in these matters regardless of other issues.


Your argument might be more persuasive if workers were fairly compensated during periods of economic recovery. Recently, this hasn't been the case. Over the past 10-15 years the upward redistribution of wealth has intensified to such an extent that even in "boom" times, wages have stagnated or increased less robustly than expected. Beyond that point, though, I don't fundamentally agree with the logic that because something is bad for one group of people, it should be bad for everyone. To my surprise, many within Chicago seem to have reached this same conclusion, as the CTU has apparently garnered widespread support during this dispute.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:20 am 
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Tall Midget wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Killer V wrote:
In my case, my pay has been frozen for two years (not even a minimal cost-of-living bump) and they're trying to extend the freeze. Meanwhile, people here are retiring and not being replaced, increasing my workload/hours on a monthly basis.


Aside from the issues other than the raises/compensation I think this sums it up right here. Over the last 5 years how many millions of people have been in pay freeze or minimal raise situations. Myself I have been in an every other year 3% bump routine. Sure I make plenty but not getting even CPI bumps every year blows. This is why the teachers and other unions garner little sympathy in these matters regardless of other issues.


Your argument might be more persuasive if workers were fairly compensated during periods of economic recovery. Recently, this hasn't been the case. Over the past 10-15 years the upward redistribution of wealth has intensified to such an extent that even in "boom" times, wages have stagnated or increased less robustly than expected. Beyond that point, though, I don't fundamentally agree with the logic that because something is bad for one group of people, it should be bad for everyone. To my surprise, many within Chicago seem to have reached this same conclusion, as the CTU has apparently garnered widespread support during this dispute.



Some truth in your words there. The company I used to work for pissed me off to no end. In bad time the xmas party speech was "we have to tighten our belts" and in good times "we have to remain cautiously optimistic and be ready for the future down times". Blow me I quit lol

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:23 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Some truth in your words there. The company I used to work for pissed me off to no end. In bad time the xmas party speech was "we have to tighten our belts" and in good times "we have to remain cautiously optimistic and be ready for the future down times". Blow me I quit lol


:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:28 am 
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cubbiegirlshamus wrote:
Besides summers they get a week off in March, 2 weeks at Christmas and every holiday off.

And if they coach or work summer school they get paid extra. They don't volunteer for that. It's more money.

And they get the same raises and ability to keep their jobs whether they are the best or worst.


Oh, these teachers. First we give them the day off on holidays, then we give them vacations. Now they want a raise? Oh, the horror.

Shouldn't you be asking your father for another handout right about now?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:30 am 
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more of the truth dribbles out in the Trib today. Rahm wants to close 120 schools, fire all the teachers and send the kids to charter schools. so yeah, no big surprise the teachers are on strike.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:35 am 
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@ Pittmike.that is pretty much every company in any industry..

I see both sides of the debate..like I said ..it is not an easy job and I could never do it..the problem is that many who are being paid can not do it either...I know one girl who teaches 3rd or 4th grade on the SE side who has 5 students in her class that are HIV +..I am sure that is very difficult and she is probably underpaid...like many others who work with behavioral problem students...When you have grandmothers raising multiple grandchildren or parents who do not give a fuck your job is going to be extremely difficult..if you got into teaching to make $ that is on you and it was not a smart move.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:35 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
more of the truth dribbles out in the Trib today. Rahm wants to close 120 schools, fire all the teachers and send the kids to charter schools. so yeah, no big surprise the teachers are on strike.


This is part of the long-term plan for the CPS. First Daley and now Emanuel want to privatize the entire system. If you have the time/inclination, take a look at the article by Henry Giroux I posted above.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:37 am 
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^^ Sounds pretty republican. Glad the Chicago labor machine supported Daley/Rahm/Dear Leader so strongly. They must feel a bit betrayed.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:01 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
more of the truth dribbles out in the Trib today. Rahm wants to close 120 schools, fire all the teachers and send the kids to charter schools. so yeah, no big surprise the teachers are on strike.

Link?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:12 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
more of the truth dribbles out in the Trib today. Rahm wants to close 120 schools, fire all the teachers and send the kids to charter schools. so yeah, no big surprise the teachers are on strike.

Link?


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012 ... ic-schools

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:31 am 
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Here's a key passage from the Tribune article:

Quote:
At the same time closings are being considered, Emanuel is building on an effort begun under Mayor Richard Daley to give more of the responsibility for educating Chicago children to private operators of charter schools, which take in taxpayer money and employ nonunion teachers. Emanuel has declared that charter schools are a key component in fixing elementary and secondary education.


It should be noted that Emanuel received somewhere upwards of $12 million in campaign contributions from charter school companies/supporters.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:38 am 
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The moment that education (elementary, high school or secondary education) went from being seen as a public good/resource to a public albatross was the moment this country started to go downhill.

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