Why are you asking me to repeat myself over and over? What is the problem here? My words are in print not just spoken. If you're confused you could read them again.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

If it isn't about the effects of pressure, i.e. fear, nerves, etc., what is the difference between choking and regular run of the mill losing?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

You don't see a difference between losing a dozen in june and losing (at least) 10 of the final 14?
I never said anything about players being scared. Or nervous.
Losing when you MUST win is a big part of it. They only had to play .500 ball. Just what they did all season. But they couldn't play even close to their season productivity over the final two weeks.

Choking.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

No. I don't see any difference at all. It just looks different like a guy who goes 0 for his first 25 is a lot more noticeable than a guy who goes 0 for 25 in the middle of the season. The Sox weren't a 90 win team. That isn't because they choked. It's because they weren't that good.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

_________________
We all have private ails. The troublemakers are they who need public cures for their private ails.- Eric Hoffer

You have got to be kidding me.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Hold your horses, Johnson. This race is not over yet.

If Baltimore wins this division, however, I will have no problem admitting that this Less than Glorious New York Yankees team choked. Just take it, Joe Rod Road.

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1923-1927-1928-1932-1936-1937-1938-1939
1941-1943-1947-1949-1950-1951-1952-1953
1956-1958-1961-1962-1977-1978-1996-1998
1999-2000-2009
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XXI - XXV - XLII - XLVI

(psssssssssssst stoneroses, I think he was referring to the Yankees choke job to the Red Sox a few years back)

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

That should be the line of the year.

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That's my purse! I don't know you!

He was.

But it could be applicable this year as well if things don't work out for the Yankees.

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I am many great things, but I am not a fortune teller, a mind reader, or a wizard. It just so happens that the ten (10) game lead in mid-July is on my mind at the moment.

Yes, I will concede that 2004 was the most massive choke job in the history of professional sports. Even in defeat, The Glorious New York Yankees are the most outstanding franchise in recorded history! Nobody chokes like they do. Ha ha ha!

When does the franchise retire Kevin Brown's number? Ha ha ha!

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1923-1927-1928-1932-1936-1937-1938-1939
1941-1943-1947-1949-1950-1951-1952-1953
1956-1958-1961-1962-1977-1978-1996-1998
1999-2000-2009
----------
XXI - XXV - XLII - XLVI

The truth is, the Sox have choked a bit, but mostly....they were just not that good. They got spectacular pre All-Star game performances from Sale and Peavy. But expecting a guy who logged all of 71 innings last season to continue to dominate after throwing well over twice the innings this season (on his way to 190) was foolish. Expecting Peavy to continue his early season dominance, when he was on his way to over 200 innings for the first time in several years, was probably expecting too much as well. Quintana also tailed off and the early season games that might have been 2-1 or 3-2 wins, became no decisions or losses. Both Sale and Peavy (as I predicted) were over a full run higher in their post All-star game ERA totals. That doesn't mean they were awful, it just means they were not the pitchers they had been early on, that generally dominated and gave their team a win most often when it was their turn in the rotation. Konerko had an awful 2nd half in terms of RBI production. Dunn after tailing off, will wind up with a higher strikeout total than batting average....again. It's just not a team that anyone should have expected that much from. I hope the innings Sale logged don't result in his career being adversely affected. He's a special pitcher. But I suspect he will break down early in 2013 as a result of the way he was used in 2012. The Sox did choke down the stretch losing 10 of 12 as they have. But it was only a terrible stetch by Detroit that kept them in contention for the most mediocre division in Baseball. Kudos to Rios for a spectacular season though.

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Go Cubs!!!!

No, I'm not kidding you. Your understanding of "choking", if there even is such a thing, seems to be different from mine, and, dare I say, most people's. You've defined it as simply losing a lead at the end of the season. But I understand it as more than that. "Choking" connotes a clear implication that a team or person failed to do what he or it could due to the outside pressure rather than just not being good enough. For example, if a guy is leading Daytona on the final lap and his engine seizes up, that wouldn't be "choking", however, if the same guy got in a single car wreck on that lap, it may well be.

You disagree? Okay, great. You can now return to your regularly scheduled posts attempting to insult me with stupid baby talk like "herp" and "derp" which is only slightly less relevant than the concept of "choking".

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I think we can all agree that nobody wants The Herp.

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Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way

These two posts illustrate that you guys have fundamentally different definitions of the word choking and I'd even guess that JORR doesn't really think it exists if you force him to pick. Should save yourselves some effort.

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Team Cutler.

I can understand this point of view.

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Me too. But I don't even know if I would say they played over their heads for most of the season. The season is as long as it is for a reason. It sorts stuff out. Injuries always play a part. Whether it's a big DL move or just guys that keep playing but obviously aren't quite right. In a perfect world this team could have won 90+ games, but it's rare when a season goes that way. In 2005, it pretty much did. I think if you look at how this pitching staff was put together it's amazing they did what they did. And naturally, the effects of the long season were likely to show up late rather than in July. It looks to me like this team just ran out of gas. If you want to call that a "choke", have at it.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

One other thing about the Sox, and good dolphin and I discussed it in another thread the other day. Ventura went with the same basic lineup for pretty much the whole season. He didn't rest guys the way Guillen did. It was frustrating to watch Guillen's Sunday lineups sometimes, but I think it kept the players fresh. Ventura went with the "Mike North system" by using A.J. like Durocher used Hundley and you could see that he was just cooked at the end.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I agree to a certain extent. By September, the regulars had to play everyday. YOu couldn't take a chance at winning a division with Jordan Danks and Dan Johnson out there a couple days a week.

Dolphin also correctly pointed out that the bench has to be upgraded. There was a while where everybody on the bench was hitting under .200. I remember watching a Sunday game in April or May when the last 4 guys in the lineup (Flowers, Fukudome, Viciedo, and Morel) were all hitting under .200. And you had Alexei and Beckham who were damn close to .200. That kind of offense is not going to get it done.

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Yeah, I'm not blaming Ventura. I never wanted to see Tyler Flowers. I don't think it's a terrible philosophy to ride your best guys hard and see what happens. It beats watching Fukodome spinning like a top. In this case it didn't work. It turned out that the Sox were a bad combination of very young and very old guys for that style to work.

The Sox sure could use a better bench, but I think in the post-steroid era there just aren't going to be real bench guys that can give you the kind of numbers we may have gotten used to.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

There have also been some lopsided games where I think the regulars were in there too long. I remember a game in Boston where the Sox were down like 9-1 or something in the 7th inning. Let some of the bench guys play those last 2-3 innings and if you come back great. If not, at least you've gotten them a bit of time in the field and maybe an at bat or 2.

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I didn't read anything but the first page. I think its a choke. It is OK for all the rookies to get tight in that kind of situation. I expected a lot more from the veterans.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I can see where JORR was coming from on this. I dont agree with his opinion but I understand why he thinks that way.

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They choked. They played good baseball for 5 and a half months then the last 2 weeks couldn't get a hit with men in scoring position. There were many winnable games in that stretch but the offense failed and put unneeded pressure on an already taxed pitching staff. It was a fun season with a very disappointing ending.

And yet, they're still better than most teams over the course of the entire season at hitting with RISP. They were bound to go through a stretch that was going to bring that number down from .292. Unfortunately, it happened at seemingly the worst possible time.

The type of player that Dunn is coupled with Konerko and AJ falling apart in the second half is what really did them in. I don't think those guys "got tight" or "choked". They just couldn't get it done. Konerko is an old guy. He's banged up. Maybe he's just about finished. It was hard to believe he was doing what he did for about the last year and a half or so at his age. AJ had great first half and they rode him hard. Did anyone catch more games? Has anyone caught more over the past five seasons? Dunn is Dunn. He's going to strike out with men on a lot of the time. And he did.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Paulie was a shell of himself once he came back from getting that wrist flushed. I heard somewhere he is going to have surgery on it as soon as the seasons ends.

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There's a word for this but it's escaping me at the moment.

Are you defining "choking" simply as losing late in the season with a lead? If so, that's fine. But I think for most people "choking" implies failing to do what one should have due to pressure or "tightness."

For example, if Chus spots you fifty pins and he throws the last five to beat you, I wouldn't say you choked. You're just a shitty bowler.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

And on and on it goes....

JORR,

To me, it's clear that you don't believe in the concept of 'choking' and just haven't quite got to the point where you can say it. It's fine if you don't, one of those things like momentum etc. that there's no quantifiable evidence.

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Team Cutler.